Are you invisible with your Radar switched Off?

[Crunchy]

Might be a daft question to some people, but I'm really trying to learn the basics here. I'd just like to know if you are more invisible to other Aircraft if you have your own Radar switched off, or do other aircraft pick you up just the same on their radar? I've just become a bit stuck regarding the radar :helpsmilie:

[Flagrum]

"More invisible" ... hrm, rather "you don't stick out as much".

 

Think of the radar as a flashlight. Or the head lamps of a car. It helps you to see other things - but at night, it makes you very, very visible. If you turn off your radar/flashlight, you can't see anything anymore ... but also you can't be seen. That is until someone else lights you up with his own radar/flashlight.

[R1Lawsy]

^^^^ Best analogy ever...

[gospadin]

Note that IRST can and will detect you when your radar is off, especially if the russian pilot knows where to look.

 

A good pair of mk 1 eyeballs is also invaluable.

[baltic_dragon]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the main advantage of having the radar off is that you will not show on enemy RWR, though honestly I don't know to what extent this is modelled for the AI airplanes..

[smnwrx]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the main advantage of having the radar off is that you will not show on enemy RWR, though honestly I don't know to what extent this is modelled for the AI airplanes..

 

This is how I understood it also

[Crunchy]

"More invisible" ... hrm, rather "you don't stick out as much".

 

Think of the radar as a flashlight. Or the head lamps of a car. It helps you to see other things - but at night, it makes you very, very visible. If you turn off your radar/flashlight, you can't see anything anymore ... but also you can't be seen. That is until someone else lights you up with his own radar/flashlight.

 

I think I get what you are saying, but what happens when you switch your radar ON? Do you suddenly just flash up on someones Radar where if you had left it off that wouldn't of happened? Are other aircraft alerted to you as soon as you switch your Radar on, like you have turned on a beacon? Also, what about a RWR like in the A10C, does this been switched on also give you away? Cheers!

Edited April 5, 2016 by Crunchy

[baltic_dragon]

You suddenly flash on someone's RWR. To see you on the radar, enemy has to paint you with the beam, and the fact that you have your radar on or off does not change it. However, when you show up at RWR it makes it considerably easier to find you, as one just has to point the antenna in the direction shown on the RWR.

 

As for the RWR itself, it is a passive system, so it won't give you away (you won't see an A-10C on the RWR for instance, even though it has its own system, but does not have a radar). Hope this makes sense!

[NeilWillis]

I think you are getting a little confused. Turning your own radar on means you are emitting radio signals that can then be detected on the Radar Warning Receiver, and will give away your bearing and level of threat to an opponent. It doesn't make you any more or less visible on his radar screen, which relies on his transmitted radar energy being reflected back to him by the physical presence of your aircraft. Radar is an active detector, and RWR is passive. In other words, turning on your radar is like turning on a torch in a dark room. If you shine the beam onto someone, you will see them, but it will also see you. RWR is like your eyes. They see the light, but don't reveal your location.

 

RWR and Radar are two entirely separate systems, and the effects of radar are modelled in the sim.

[Voodooflies]

Alright so it looks like some enlightment is required here. You can't really be invisible even with radar off. The aircraft itself and its loadout will always reflect waves of enemy radar at some point. We're talking about RCS. On DCS, most aircraft are old gens aircrafts, we won't have any F-22/Rafale/F-35 until 40 years perhaps, so don't really count on those stealthy fighters. Since we're talking about old gens aircrafts, they have their pros/cons at the time those were built. You can't be 100% stealthy, however you can significantly lower your reflection towards the bandit by adopting some behaviour. Flying radar off will of course let you be more stealthy since you don't emit any waves (RWR/SPO signal) on top of your aircraft reflection but you won't be able to pick-up any threats (forget about the IRST). Adopting a notch attitude, while flying slow (that's why rotary wings below 120 kts can't be acquired most of the time) and low will make you almost invisible since most radar on DCS have a really bad time spotting a target in those condition. Knowing these basics will improve your BVR skills.

 

Now, IRST is not OP, you just have to know how to counter it. Its functionality is based on IR signature, which means heat... You got it ?... Manage your RPM and exhaust temperture (which means bannish burners on cruise and manage fuel consumption) and you'll be fine against those.

 

Finally, there is no "one method" to succeed. That's what makes DCS interesting, everything is dynamic, each situation is different, even more in WVR.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Sacha

[Crunchy]

So would I be right in thinking that it is a bit pointless turning my Radar off when looking for targets? Maybe switching it off if i want to be a bit less detected from someones RWR at other times? I hope this is right after these great comments.

[Custard]

So would I be right in thinking that it is a bit pointless turning my Radar off when looking for targets? Maybe switching it off if i want to be a bit less detected from someones RWR at other times? I hope this is right after these great comments.

Your radar being on or off makes NO difference to how easily other planes pick you up on radar.

But if your radar is on and you are pointing toward an aircraft he WILL see you on his RWR the vast majority of the time unless he is at extreme range.

If your radar is off he WILL NOT see you on his RWR under any circumstances.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Custard

[Crunchy]

Your radar being on or off makes NO difference to how easily other planes pick you up on radar.

But if your radar is on and you are pointing toward an aircraft he WILL see you on his RWR the vast majority of the time unless he is at extreme range.

If your radar is off he WILL NOT see you on his RWR under any circumstances.

 

So, like I said above, it's good to switch it off at times, even if it's just to be invisible on his RWR for a bit?

[nomdeplume]

So, like I said above, it's good to switch it off at times, even if it's just to be invisible on his RWR for a bit?

Yes, it can work. Often done by MiG-21 pilots in DCS who are outmatched by other flyables in head-to-head fights (plus their radar is borderline useless for search, anyway). Typical tactic is to fly very low so the terrain shields them from other aircraft's radars, and then hope to spot someone visually and get the jump on them.

 

It's most effective when you have help from others - they can give you directions over the radio to help you get into a good position. Can be done formally with Ground Controlled Interception (GCI) or with airborne radars (AWACS in DCS), and informally with other players who are using their radars relaying information about contacts. Or, just someone looking at the F10 map or LotATC display and giving you vectors to intercept.

[Voodooflies]

So, like I said above, it's good to switch it off at times, even if it's just to be invisible on his RWR for a bit?

 

That's what you're supposed to do. It's good to have wingmen aswell, then as a flight lead you can task each ships of your package to scan between specific angels and angles. That's how I proceed.

[Crunchy]

Just one more thing and thanks for all the comments, I really appreciate it. If he picks me up on Radar but not on his RWR, then I presume he can't identify the aircraft he is looking at correct? So with my Radar off he can't identify me unless he can visually see me?

Edited April 5, 2016 by Crunchy

[Texac]

Just one more thing and thanks for all the comments, I really appreciate it. If he picks me up on Radar but not on his RWR, then I presume he can't identify the aircraft he is looking at correct? So with my Radar off he can't identify me unless he can visually see me?

The enemy radar can identify the aircraft you're flying even if your radar is turned off.

So the enemy knows against what aircraft he is fighting once he got a lock on you.

If you turn your ECM (Electronic Countermeasures) on the enemy can't see what aircraft he's fighting again, it's altitude and it's speed.

 

The RWR will show you the aircraft and it's position if it's radar is turned on.

Really good for situational awareness.

[VTJS17_Fire]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the main advantage of having the radar off is that you will not show on enemy RWR, though honestly I don't know to what extent this is modelled for the AI airplanes..

With the radar off, you reduce your SA and reaction time to a threat. Also you have less time to set up a tactic against any threats. The radar (range) is your biggest advantage in BVR combat. No real pilot - even with GCI support - will set off his radar, while in combat. Not today.

 

You can say, that you close your eyes. Yep, you can also walk blind through the streets and listen to the sounds, but you're slower and less flexible.

[mattebubben]

Just one more thing and thanks for all the comments, I really appreciate it. If he picks me up on Radar but not on his RWR, then I presume he can't identify the aircraft he is looking at correct? So with my Radar off he can't identify me unless he can visually see me?

 

Depends on the aircraft.

 

The F-15C can id an aircraft by using its radar. (NCTR)

 

Once its close enough the radar can get enough information about the size / shape of the radar signature of the aircraft and then match that info against a register to find a possible match.

 

the M-2000 module will also get this feature.

 

And also not all aircraft can ID you aircraft by using RWR.

 

only the western aircraft currently have RWRs with that capabillity (so the A-10A/C F-15C and mirage 2000)

 

So a Su-27 or Mig-29 will not be able to ID you at range (Other then Friend or foe).

[Crunchy]

I've just been reading about Radar on the Internet and came across this website (link Below.) I'm sure I have seen people talk about flying low so you are masked by the terrain objects, but according to this thread it's not always a good idea. What is Radar like in DCS when flying low below 5000ft and can you place radar on hills like this website suggests?

 

https://www.quora.com/Air-and-Missile-Defense-How-does-flying-at-low-altitude-allow-aircraft-to-avoid-radar-detection

[Yurgon]

What is Radar like in DCS when flying low below 5000ft and can you place radar on hills like this website suggests?

 

No clue about 5,000 ft in particular, but generally speaking: If the radar has line of sight, it can see you. If there's a hill in between, it doesn't have line of sight, so it can't see you. Which is why ground radars are usually not located in a valley, but rather on top of the next hill - so that they can see further and have a much wider "field of view", so to speak.

 

You've already been told how older radars were "confused" by ground clutter and how newer radars can filter that out, so I won't go into any detail there.

 

I think one thing worth noting is "sensor fusion", which we'll be hearing a lot of in the years to come.

 

With all the aircraft currently modeled in DCS, RWR and radar are totally separate and independent systems. But if you come to think of it, it would be totally awesome if your radar screen could also show you the estimated location of a radar transmitter. Sensor fusion does just that - it combines the input from all available sensors (radar, RWR, IRST, datalink, you name it) and tries to present as complete a picture as possible to the pilot.

 

The F-35 is going to be pretty big on this, but it sure won't be the last aircraft to feature sensor fusion.

 

A very mild example of sensor fusion, if you bear with me while straying a tiny bit off topic, would be the A-10C's TGP, TAD and HUD, most of which can also display bits of information from other sources. For instance, the TGP can show the location of an EPLRS equipped ground unit. The TAD can show this as well, and can show the location the TGP is currently looking at. Or let's take the M-2000C (among others): The HUD can also show the location of the radar contact that's currently locked. Basically, these are very simple examples of sensor fusion, and like I said, more modern examples will probably include RWR and all other types of sensors.

 

Just so we're all on the same page, I don't intend to turn this into the umpteenth F-35 flame war, there's a dedicated thread for anyone interested. Just wanted to point out that major advancements are currently under development, so when we say "RWR and radar are independent", that's true for DCS aircraft right now, but not necessarily true in the real world any longer.

[Crunchy]

Thanks Yurgon, that was a very interesting read. I look forward to sensor fusion because it looks to make things even simpler for a pilot.

[Yurgon]

In a way, it's going to make things for fighter pilots as easy as in the days of F-18 Interceptor on the Amiga: lock up a threat on your 360° display, select a weapon, launch, kill. Well at least that's what I've taken away from the F-35 advertisements so far. ;)

[WildBillKelsoe]

but how could a radar on an aircraft flying east be detected on RWR on another flying west?

I know radar is a directed energy, not a hotspot, unlike radar on AD units that keeps swiveling 360 degrees and paints everything because of that.

 

Another thing I want to know, if an F-15 turns his radar on the ground and a ground crewman is standing in front of that radar, or a sandwich for example, does he or the sandwich get radiation sickness? or poisoning?

[xaoslaad]

It's not good for you... in the game radar is inhibited on the ground. I think at least some aircraft behave like that though I could not vouch for any of the ones in the game... more the weather radar in civilian aircraft.