Question about HOT (1,2,3?) performance

[D4n]

Will the missile keep flying where it was launched at, when breaking lock after launch?

[Teldja]

Will the missile keep flying where it was launched at, when breaking lock after launch?

 

If you break the "lock" the missile will just hit the ground.

You need to keep the viviane on target to make sure the missile (which is wired btw) will hit it.

[D4n]

So destroying Shilka or Tunguska with it is impossible?

[WinterH]

So destroying Shilka or Tunguska with it is impossible?

 

You can very much outrange the Shilka. Tunguska would be hairier though. People have posted videos of taking out OSAs and even TORs with Gazelle, not that I feel comfortable trying such, but seems possible at least :).

 

Theoretically, breaking lock and hiding behind something close to moment of impact may work. But even if it does, seeing how Tunguska's missiles are both longer ranged and way faster than HOT, not sure missile dueling with a Tunguska which is actively engaging us is a good idea.

[microvax]

You can dip back behind cover as long the viviane can still look over it.

[xaoslaad]

Seems IRL that would not be possible with a wire guided missile...

[Flagrum]

Seems IRL that would not be possible with a wire guided missile...

It is a valid tactic with these anti tank helos and taught and trained as such in the german army (with the Bo-105).

 

Why would it not be possible? The wire will not break just because you change your altitude by a few feet.

[D4n]

Viviane (optical sensor?) Is above the canopy, below rotor on the Gazelle? :D

[Flagrum]

Viviane (optical sensor?) Is above the canopy, below rotor on the Gazelle? :D

Uhm ... yes?

 

You can dip back behind cover as long the viviane can still look over it.

 

Or do you mean, the visible rotor will still get you killed? Maybe. But still better than hovering in full sight.

[Fri13]

It is a valid tactic with these anti tank helos and taught and trained as such in the german army (with the Bo-105).

 

Why would it not be possible? The wire will not break just because you change your altitude by a few feet.

 

Trees or bushes or other would cut it

[Flagrum]

Ok, so the german army did it all wrong all those years?

 

edit:

Twigs and branches are no razor blades - they are flexible instead. And as the wire itself does not move (not dragged by the missile, but spooled off of the missile), it will not really entangle with the vegetation.

 

also (but only in german):

Edited May 26, 2016 by Flagrum

[Fri13]

Ok, so the german army did it all wrong all those years?

 

edit:

Twigs and branches are no razor blades - they are flexible instead. And as the wire itself does not move (not dragged by the missile, but spooled off of the missile), it will not really entangle with the vegetation.

 

also (but only in german):

 

Twigs and branches actually can cut wire easily if it is windy or helicopter moves or missile guidance needs to be moved elsewhere. As you said as well, the wire is spooled from missile, but that doesn't mean the wire is tight or loose all the time. The wire will be "dropped" behind missile and when it gets on a branch sledged and you pull helicopter down slightly.... snaps. Same thing when missile fly and you track a moving target that goes behind foliage etc, can get easily snapped off.

 

It really is like a fishing line, can be a tricky when it easily gets tangled to something.

 

That is reason why Russia opted for lasers and radio guided missiles later, even when a wire guided is impossible to be jammed or disrupt.

 

Yes, it is less likely with a Gazelle or Bo to cut wire because likely you fire from a hover, but still very possible. And we are not going to see the modelation for that in DCS.... (even when it could easily be made).

[The_Fragger]

Pilot told us that the missile will go "crazy" until it hits the ground

 

 

 

Will the missile keep flying where it was launched at, when breaking lock after launch?

[MAD-MM]

No because the rotor head of Gazelle is slightly angled forward, means the fuselage of the gazelle is looking in the sky in Hover conditions.

you launch the missiles over the cover in front of you when the vivane is cable to spot the enemy.

[Flagrum]

Twigs and branches actually can cut wire easily if it is windy or helicopter moves or missile guidance needs to be moved elsewhere. As you said as well, the wire is spooled from missile, but that doesn't mean the wire is tight or loose all the time. The wire will be "dropped" behind missile and when it gets on a branch sledged and you pull helicopter down slightly.... snaps. Same thing when missile fly and you track a moving target that goes behind foliage etc, can get easily snapped off.

 

It really is like a fishing line, can be a tricky when it easily gets tangled to something.

 

That is reason why Russia opted for lasers and radio guided missiles later, even when a wire guided is impossible to be jammed or disrupt.

 

Yes, it is less likely with a Gazelle or Bo to cut wire because likely you fire from a hover, but still very possible. And we are not going to see the modelation for that in DCS.... (even when it could easily be made).

I am not sure what you are trying to get across here. Of course wires can snap and of course wire guidance has some specific peculiarities - no one doubts that. But the case at hand was "dipping behind cover while still guiding". And it works, at least better than not doing it - at least in RL for the german army (and the french, I suppose).

[Fri13]

I am not sure what you are trying to get across here. Of course wires can snap and of course wire guidance has some specific peculiarities - no one doubts that. But the case at hand was "dipping behind cover while still guiding". And it works, at least better than not doing it - at least in RL for the german army (and the french, I suppose).

Ie in your video it is hover, not lowering down. As the missile after launch already pop-up and then dive down to LOS.

 

So you don't do that you fire and then lower to cover as you can snap wire. You already are low so only Vivian is visible so you can't get lower. And the cover isn't just front of you, it can be 100-300m from you.

[Flagrum]

My linked video starts after it was explained that the helo positions itself in an observing position (Beobachtungsposition) where it is difficult for the enemy to spot (or hear) it. That observing position is our position behind a cover of i.e. vegetation, where the sighting system is still able to observe the target.

 

Then the video at 3:27 onward:

commentator: When the PAH commander has choosen a target, the helo shortly pulls above the cover so that the missiles have a free line of sight.

cmdr: prepare to fire!

cmdr: tank on the left.

cmdr: ready to fire.

cmdr: target aquired.

cmdr: attention ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... fire!

pilot(?): missile is running

commentator: Immediately after firing, the PAH gets back to the observing position and the commander steers the missile from the cover to the target.

cmdr: Hit!

...

[Poly_Phil]

The missile wire is pretty thick, unlike a Milan or an Eryx. It's roughly the size of headphones cable. So it doesn't break that easily.

[Ligeti]

I was wondering whether there should be more smoke when the missile fires, e.g.

 

[xaoslaad]

It is a valid tactic with these anti tank helos and taught and trained as such in the german army (with the Bo-105).

 

Why would it not be possible? The wire will not break just because you change your altitude by a few feet.

By how much? If the landing skids are above the terrain sure. Those missiles aren't very high up on the aircraft.... you'd be dragging the wire through ground clutter, rocks, dirt, vegetation, whatever. I find it hard to believe that works, but prove me wrong and I'll eat my words...

 

Edit: Thanks for the video and translation. Good stuff. Words eaten. I also didnt realize the wire was spooled on the rocket and not the launcher.

Edited May 26, 2016 by xaoslaad

[MAD-MM]

xaoslaad you be possible right, but first it's hard enough on daylight raids, the AI see's all can look trough tree's.

First should ED AI improvements on the Way then we can cut the wire :thumbup:

[D4n]

The question also is, how "hard" is the rolled wire attached to the HOT, will the missile pull the wire off hard (wire will be nearly straight) or will the weight of cable be a stronger pulling force and the wire thus hanging, maybe even touching ground between Gazelle and target?

 

And I assume HOT is LOAL capable?

[Hivewasp]

You can dip back behind cover as long the viviane can still look over it.

 

Would have helped more if it was mast mounted :D

 

I usually try to keep as low a profile as I can; being right behind an obstacle; peeking just enough. That's hoping the missile gets confused and bump in the obstacle; most cases though I would just stay the hell out of there and look for easier prey while someone else is on SEAD; let's just recon that SAM for the bigger boys in the team.

[Fri13]

The missile wire is pretty thick, unlike a Milan or an Eryx. It's roughly the size of headphones cable. So it doesn't break that easily.

 

Define "pretty thick" ;-)

 

A 0.3mm thick wire that is around spool size of inner diameter 10cm and outer diameter 15cm (HOT missile diameter) gives you 32.7m worth of cable. To get 4300m cable the spool needs to be 39.4cm long.

The diameter difference ratio change the spool length if its diameters are kept same, ie 0.15mm wire will require 19.8cm long spool and 0.6mm thick 80cm long spool.

 

The spool is around other parts for guidance:

 

http://weaponsystems.net/image/s-lightbox/n-HOT%20missile/--/img/ws/msl_atm_hot_m10.jpg

 

The wire is very thin actually to get all 4300m length inside the guidance module.

[Fri13]

My linked video starts after it was explained that the helo positions itself in an observing position (Beobachtungsposition) where it is difficult for the enemy to spot (or hear) it. That observing position is our position behind a cover of i.e. vegetation, where the sighting system is still able to observe the target.

 

Then the video at 3:27 onward:

commentator: When the PAH commander has choosen a target, the helo shortly pulls above the cover so that the missiles have a free line of sight.

cmdr: prepare to fire!

cmdr: tank on the left.

cmdr: ready to fire.

cmdr: target aquired.

cmdr: attention ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... fire!

pilot(?): missile is running

commentator: Immediately after firing, the PAH gets back to the observing position and the commander steers the missile from the cover to the target.

cmdr: Hit!

...

 

Yes, but still you don't really move. The HOT missile will fly about 50cm above the sighting system line of sight, and after the fire missile will pop-up for that range. So you don't need to move at all when you have that 20-30m distance to obstacles so missile gets above it. So your firing position is always behind the obstacle so Vivian only see over it. And you don't want to risk your commander to lose the line of sight to the missile as then guidance will go wacko. So even if you slightly lower too low that Vivian line of sight is blocked for couple seconds, missile is likely gone.

 

The wire is so thin that you easily snap it off. The problem is to launch missile at correct moment as even a moving target that passes trees or poles will easily get wire cut off as the wire is tangled to the missile route and then slight movement between the tangled wire part and launching platform can snap it.

 

The most important part is still that you change firing position after each launch and avoid become visible until just before the launch. And that your position to the obstacles front of you is so that there is enough space to missile pop-up above line of sight and you don't need to move at all.

 

The helicopter that can actually lower itself to cover after launch is Apache with AGM-114L as it doesn't require guidance after launch and helicopter can hide where wanted (or actually can fire from the cover once the helicopter has got the targets via radar.