Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 8

[microvax]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2869234&postcount=2

 

Micro cant say how much of happiness he is. xD

[Enduro14]

Yup that is the one and only update I was wishing for in this old map!

[microvax]

Yup that is the one and only update I was wishing for in this old map!

 

For me its colidable trees over everything, but since we are getting new mesh, new map standard, collidable trees, everything is fine. ^^

 

 

When the Viggen gets released I will be constantly asking for Viggen slots with this cammo. :DD

 

EDIT: Here the Video

[ame]

[/ame]

 

For Viggen life skip to 2:01.

Edited August 9, 2016 by microvax

[BodyOrgan]

Did we try mi8 with repair crate? Oh and I forgive you Body organ was so close to repair that Kub lol!

I'm so sorry about that. I was listening on GCI channel, and heard we lost the FARP, and that a Mi-8 had been shot down, so I didn't IFF. I thought you were the Huey going to capture it.

 

If it's any consolation we did recapture it, and the comm array. Also, managed to close Kutaisi, but I hit a building attempting to dodge an AIM-7 fired at me, so we only closed it.

[Pikey]

Good to see the Red team comeback on this round. If Blue could match that energy they have on the forums in game we might have a better fight.

[OperatorJack]

Good to see the Red team comeback on this round. If Blue could match that energy they have on the forums in game we might have a better fight.

 

They're too busy comparing aircraft of different roles and complaining the one designed to be a gunship is a better gunship :megalol:

[Yuya6104]

Perfect theme right now at this moment for redfor side!!!

[ame]

[/ame]

[Voodooflies]

Hi all,

i am new to BF and i flew a few sorties and it wascgreat fun...

i can just say that blue GCI was not working very well and the reds seemed much better organized while mostly outnumbered. So i dont think its the weapons, nor is it the individual skill, but teamwork which is the deciding factor.

I personally was a bit disappointed how blue gci payed no attention to new players and worked only with pilots they knew from before. In spite of my best efforts to sign in to a proper gci channel, announce my flight and ask for tasking, i was mostly forgotten by the operator.

 

One thing i would like to know (and pardon my ignorance) why does the gci always give directions with respect to a certain player? isnt it more useful to refer to a preset bullseye so that everyone has an idea where is stuff without needing to clutter the channel with questions? of course when the friendly is close to engagement its easier, but when a gci gives a picture it would be much more informative to do it with a common reference?

 

Welcome to BlueFlag (;

 

in regards to the GCI calls, since he sees "everything" it is better for him to give directions from individual aircraft, a Bullseye call is best used in a flight where you can't see where your wingmen are, so you have to communicate that verbally somehow.

 

As a GCI myself working for BLUFOR I would like to clarify some things regarding GCI facts you highlighted. As a GCI, I always try to establish coms with aircrafts within' my controlled area, for instance I recently was in charge of controlling the eastern airspace and I kept looking for new player to take care off, however the biggest problem is people who aren't on frequency.

 

Some advises here, first, contact GCI only when you're airborne, I had few pilots who contacted my while on chocks so I couldn't take care of them, remain on 251.0 until the end of your departure. Once done, monitor to the GCI frequency (either 264.0 or 254.0, it depends of your current location as we have two GCIs who works togheter by splitting the whole airspace in half resulting having a GCI West and a GCI East), this "control split" is roughly related to PAKs area. Once you're tuned in, announce yourself by giving aircraft type and position so we can find you faster on the screen. Many GCI including myself are using a callsign within their nickname to claritfy things up even more (Magic, Sentry, Darkstar, and so on).

 

Concerning the job itself, we don't see everything as it depends of our EWR setup on the battlefield wich extend our vision I believe, and sometimes there are some bugs that are corrected by changing slot, happened to me yesterday, I was blind for 30 min until I changed slot (guessing that's an ED side bug ?). Also, it's a good thing that some pilots report hostile contacts (relative to their aircraft or bulls) as sometimes picture appears to be clean whereas it's not. It happens that GCI has to "guess" for bandits as those aren't showing up on the map, that way, flight reports helps a lot and offers to GCI the possibility to divert other CAP flight packages to the "last known contact position".

 

Finally, if you have to RTB for any reason (vul ending, winchester, joker/bingo), you can also warn the GCI to help him in his packages management, then he'll clear you to monitor to another frequency, most likely 251.0. :smilewink:

Edited August 9, 2016 by Sacha

[amazingme]

Plans for Round 9?

--probably after ED edges out some of the annoying bugs--

Edited August 9, 2016 by amazingme
because I can

[microvax]

You guys dont even know how happy I am that I dont have to make a video anymore about the mirage that showcases that the mirage is not breaking laws of physics.

 

[ame]

[/ame]

 

So some situations where according to some people the mirage cann pull maneuvers without energy. And as seen in the video it obviously cant and looses energy in huge amounts.

 

[gonna add metric units, dunno hwo well some maybee flanker only pilots are not having the feel for imperial bulls***. We have bluefor guys who cant deal with metric in any way shape or form so ye. :D]

 

8:30 jman starts the engagement with 570kts [1050kph] speed

 

8:35 he is at 527 [976], so no huge speed loss, but we are at high speeds so the G limiter limits the maneuvers way before AOA is even anywhere near something considerably "high".

Delta: 123kph

 

8:40 jman has something like 420kts [777] speed left, from what i can read on the speed dial

Delta: 199

 

What we can see here, the lower the speed gets, the G limitation becomes less of a factor and the FBW limits the maneuvers more and more by AOA. IIRC the FBW limits the AOA at 32 in Air to air mode. Higher AOA means obviously higher instant turn but also higher speed loss due to kinda ridicouslous drag. Thus the speed loss is increasing with the speed getting lower, given that you pull as hard as the FBW will allow you to.

 

Now the real deal.

 

8:45 Jman has pulled the I CAN TURRRRRN card and is now comming out of the turn at 200kts [370kph].

So we just lost 400kph speed in 5 seconds due to excessive AOA which gave us the high instant turn and huge energy loss a delta wing gives you if you want to.

 

But the speed loss doesnt stop there directly since you have to recover the plane from high AOA first to gain speed even while he is in a flat dive. So we reach low cap somewhere around 180kts [333] at 8:48.

 

Overall delta in 18 seconds : ~720kph

Highest delta 400kph in 4 seconds.

 

at 10:30 jman pulls the I CAN TURRRRN card again and lands somewhere below 200kts [370] again.

 

At 10:40 you can see admirably how the "mirage pullz maneuverz without energy" argument is utter rubbish. He tries to turn to get a shot on the 27.

But he has no speed to bleed so the FBW is like "BEEEP BEEEP BEEEP you are not turning m9"

 

At 10:45 he is sitting dead in the water pretty much turn rate wise while the su27 past him without mirage getting a glorious no energy maneuver kill.

 

Jman goes for the only right thing and eases down the aoa/turnrate and regains speed, meanwhile the su27 gains on him.

 

11:15 jman pulls his last I CAN TURRRRN card looses all his energy floating towards the ground, without energy to evade, he takes an r73 to the face.

And oh wow he dies.

 

According to what some people say about the mirage problems, he should have been able to pull into the 27 at 11:18, tank the r73, and kill him while flying away at mach 1.

 

I didnt see any high rate/aoa turn without energy. I would set the mark for no energy to maneuver in the mirage somewhere around 200kts [370], you can go lower with speed but you dont have any speed left to trade for instant turn.

 

Overall I think my argument is still valid here, if the mirage doesnt finish the target within time x and bleeds all its energy in TURRRRRNs, the su27 is well capable to fight the mirage. It cant pull the TURRRN card on the mirage like it could on a f15 I guess, but still it can fight it.

 

Something about energy here. Thrust to weight ratio of a mirage with no missiles left and 60% fuel is still a little bit worse then a su27 with 4 r27s 4 r73s and 80% fuel.

 

The thing you also have to account for here through is, the mirage at that stage is ca. 10 tons, the flanker is 24. So the flanker just has to feight sooo much more inertia.

 

 

I really hope you take a good look at the numbers Would be interesting to see tacview total energy calcs for that fight. But I think its pretty obvious that the mirage isnt the nyan cat wonderwaffle people say it is in terms of maneuverability from the video.

If it doesnt have energy it simply cant pull the TURRRN card against you.

And it does loose tons of energy if you commit to a high AOA turn.

 

If the mirage is close at the six of a target and the angle between the FPLs isnt to big i think the flanker cant do shit. The mirage will be able to go lag to regain energy, and with the TURRRN card can get a short time frame of lead or pure to fire guns/missiles. And the su27 at that stage probably cant break away. But as seen, if the mirage doesnt get in that position and burn all its energy, it will not be able to win the fight through straight turning.

 

 

 

On that note, I get that su33 would be at least another option for redfor since redfor is stuck with fc3 scrublord planes mostly already, didnt notice that point in the forums so far bodyorgan pointed that out yesterday on ts, and with that in mind I am pretty much fine with adding the su33 space ship. [it has actually the chance of getting run out of CM by the 4 mirage missiles. :DD]

 

The only thing i really wanted to prove here that the "omg mirage SFM not better then SU33 can pull maneuverz without energy" statement is wrong pretty obviously. :D

 

I get that su27 is kinda between a rock and a hard place now with the f15 ruling bvr/high alt [according to what I hear from people all the time] and the mirage going through theese OMNOMNOM AOA BLEED ALL ENERGY turns to gain a six position.

 

And I get that one might think the mirage is out of energy in some situations and, it definitely gets to the point where you are dead in the water pretty fast if you commit to high AOA.

And I am not blaming anyone who had a situation where he thought the mirage was out of energy, its pretty hard to guestimate the target speed in the heat of le engagement with a pretty small plane, and then called bullshit on its maneuvering.

 

I just hope to bust that myth with my analysis here. There is so much rubbish bias bullsh*t on both sides about frames of the other.

 

The famous "OMG THE KA50 TANKED MUH HEATER HAXXX", while the aim9 just went close and inflicted minor damage,

to the "BULLSHIT R73 GIB AIM9X",

to the "THEY SE US EVERYWHERE BUT WE NEVER SEE THEM",

to the "OMG MIRAGE SUPER MISSILES TURNS WITHOUT ENERGY".

 

And all of that is just pretty much plain annoying to both sides, I think, and I hope I could highlight that the mirage is just very good at one thing, trading very much energy for very high instant turn rate. If it doesnt have the energy, it will not be able to do that.

Edited August 9, 2016 by microvax

[amazingme]

Yeah.. very nice..but what about those Matras?

[microvax]

Yeah.. very nice..but what about those Matras?

 

You didnt even specify which missile you are talking about.

 

If I am taking my time writing an elaborate post, please be so kind and do me the favour and at least specify which missile you are talking about and what aspect of the missile you consider obviously wrong.

 

And tell me which missiles in DCS arent obviously broken atm.

 

And if you have data which indicates something not obviosuly broken, beeing broken Razbam is happy to implement it for sure.

[*Rage*]

Come on blue. Don't let it end tonight.

 

Rally!

[razgriz33]

Come on blue. Don't let it end tonight.

 

Rally!

 

here here! tell me where we stand! i've tried to retake kutasi with a few brothers but to no avail: helpsmilie:

 

We stand strong if we cooperate! :)

[razgriz33]

here here! tell me where we stand! i've tried to retake kutasi with a few brothers but to no avail: helpsmilie:

 

We stand strong if we cooperate! :)

 

scratch that, just got nailed by a ka50 in my only available gazelle M variant, why can't we have an L as well as an M on airfields :(

 

All the fighters are off playing cards up at batumi or something

 

the other half that were on blue are now playing on red now that blue is having a hard time.

Need some of that red spirit but honestly i'm exhausted.

 

What makes sense is that the losing team get's encouraged, MORE air defences for less cities for example.

 

Good game, well played those that were on red from the start :thumbup:

[Jugdriver]

Come on blue. Don't let it end tonight.

 

Rally!

 

Don't think we are going to pull it off this round.. but we will see.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

[Jman]

I really hope you take a good look at the numbers Would be interesting to see tacview total energy calcs for that fight. But I think its pretty obvious that the mirage isnt the nyan cat wonderwaffle people say it is in terms of maneuverability from the video.

If it doesnt have energy it simply cant pull the TURRRN card against you.

And it does loose tons of energy if you commit to a high AOA turn.

 

Thanks for sharing, as far as sharing the tacview, I can get you the track for purpose of seeing the numbers, I can forward you the track for the sake of not hijacking this thread.

 

Yeah.. very nice..but what about those Matras?

 

What exactly is wrong with the "Matras", are you talking about the Matra R550 Magic 2 or Matra Super S530D? And regardless of which of the two, whats wrong with the missile track?

 

Come on blue. Don't let it end tonight.

 

Rally!

 

If it weren't because of work I'd be on, I always find the final battles the funnest. Yesterday was fun scrambling and having over 6 bandits in the air to have fun with!

 

 

Regardless of it all, great job RedFor. Well deserved win, hoping to push back some and maybe lengthen the round to the weekend :pilotfly:

Edited August 9, 2016 by Jman

[Caffeine_High]

What is the skill level you chose for the Red AI Mig-29 & Blue AI F-4 pilots?

[Hedhunta]

Looks like its all over, only 3 bases left to go. Won't take long, by the end of the day probably.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Don't think we are going to pull it off this round.. but we will see.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

Always starts with good communication and coordination but then the people who want to join for an air quake get in and make it a losing battle that we cannot recover from. It's the lack of the two that make it less enjoyable for me anyways and I'd rather practice bombing in a mig15 than try and coordinate people who aren't on comms or won't listen to a team mate or battle master aka gci. When it gets to the point where there is a server full of blue and nobody on ts or on srs proper channels then that is when I stop flying and wait for the next round.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[gregzagk]

[Jugdriver]

Always starts with good communication and coordination but then the people who want to join for an air quake get in and make it a losing battle that we cannot recover from. It's the lack of the two that make it less enjoyable for me anyways and I'd rather practice bombing in a mig15 than try and coordinate people who aren't on comms or won't listen to a team mate or battle master aka gci. When it gets to the point where there is a server full of blue and nobody on ts or on srs proper channels then that is when I stop flying and wait for the next round.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

 

Was that aimed at me?

 

JD

AKA_MattE

[Yuya6104]

The bluefor theme at this moment of time

[ame]

[/ame] Edited August 9, 2016 by Yuya6104

[microvax]

God damn it redfor haxxxxs. Mirage 60ft mach1 going around zugdidi, missiles go into the ground left right and center, connection timeout.

 

BRILLIANT. :DD

 

Waiting to get BK90s on similar performance frame. )))

Edited August 9, 2016 by microvax

[microvax]

 

We came back to tblisi bluefor works best in tight spaces, that way all the clusterF is getting compressed to an inpenetrable reality distortion field !!!:megalol: