Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9

[Fedduk]

Still not sure why people complain or are surprised about the M2000's effectiveness. It is supposed to be very dangerous, being the most modern fighter in the setup right now and doubly so in Blue Flag where active radar missiles have been taken away.

 

Its less than 10 years apart with the F-15C if we take the date of coming into service, and contemporary with Su-27, so you are not wholly right. Yeah, its marginally "younger", but not by much.

The point is, it breaks the immersion and balance, being only full-fidelity fighter. Sure, I understand why everyone want to fly it, but before the introduction of mirage to BF it was much more balanced in soviet fighters vs american fighters setup. D2M really kills the only advatage soviet fighters have (EOS), making them borderline useless. You can have whatever number of IR missiles, but they will be defeated by firing as much as two or three flares, and soviet SARH missiles are just garbage.

[metzger]

Its less than 10 years apart with the F-15C if we take the date of coming into service, and contemporary with Su-27, so you are not wholly right. Yeah, its marginally "younger", but not by much.

The point is, it breaks the immersion and balance, being only full-fidelity fighter. Sure, I understand why everyone want to fly it, but before the introduction of mirage to BF it was much more balanced in soviet fighters vs american fighters setup. D2M really kills the only advatage soviet fighters have (EOS), making them borderline useless. You can have whatever number of IR missiles, but they will be defeated by firing as much as two or three flares, and soviet SARH missiles are just garbage.

So the full fidelity module breaks the immersion, while FC3 helps for the immersion :D thats funny :)

 

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[lemoen]

Its less than 10 years apart with the F-15C if we take the date of coming into service, and contemporary with Su-27, so you are not wholly right. Yeah, its marginally "younger", but not by much.

The point is, it breaks the immersion and balance, being only full-fidelity fighter. Sure, I understand why everyone want to fly it, but before the introduction of mirage to BF it was much more balanced in soviet fighters vs american fighters setup. D2M really kills the only advatage soviet fighters have (EOS), making them borderline useless. You can have whatever number of IR missiles, but they will be defeated by firing as much as two or three flares, and soviet SARH missiles are just garbage.

 

It takes some skill to beat the Su27s and Mig29s even though their workload is less, you have to flip switches and stuff a lot in the M2000 as well as tilt the radar up and down to find your targets. Also their radars have a longer range, I get locked on and launched on before I can do so in the M2000. I think you overestimate how good the M2000 is, even though it probably is (rightly so) the best interceptor in the game currently.

 

Defeating the SARH of the M2000 is basically a matter of notching them to lose radar lock. This happens EVERY SINGLE TIME the enemy notches. Try it.

[Fedduk]

It takes some skill to beat the Su27s and Mig29s even though their workload is less, you have to flip switches and stuff a lot in the M2000 as well as tilt the radar up and down to find your targets. Also their radars have a longer range, I get locked on and launched on before I can do so in the M2000. I think you overestimate how good the M2000 is, even though it probably is (rightly so) the best interceptor in the game currently.

 

Defeating the SARH of the M2000 is basically a matter of notching them to lose radar lock. This happens EVERY SINGLE TIME the enemy notches. Try it.

 

Well, notching works vs every doppler radar, but it is purely defensive maneuver and makes you lose initiative.

About radar. You - are - wrong. AFAIK if you'll judge by ingame configs, it is actually better that F-15's radar, which was best in the game (but I heard about it a while ago, so something might have changed). MiG's radar definitely is crap, Su's somewhat better. And you also have to tilt our scanning beam down or up to spot targets, you know.

 

So the full fidelity module breaks the immersion, while FC3 helps for the immersion :D thats funny :)

 

yeah, that really sounds funny, but for me immersion is not just clicking switches (well, that too) but I just cant make myself believe that two hordes of mirages are kicking the crap out of each other over Georgia. It just doesnt make any sense.

Edited February 23, 2017 by BIGNEWY
1.1 profanity

[lemoen]

I see. I highly doubt the radar thing though. I get locked and launched on before I even have the contact on radar even if I know where they are (via GCI).

 

Regarding the m2000s fighting, well, that's something to take up with the mission designers. You can't take the M2000 out of BF completely, it IS the only full fidelity fighter we have. Maybe the solution is to work out a more believable scenario, that isn't a Russia vs the Rest scenario.

 

Maybe we'll one day get to a point where we can drop the FC3 aircraft completely. At the end of the year maybe we can drop the F15 and use the F14 instead, or drop M2000 from red, add F14 to red or whatever.

[-Painter-]

I do not agree Fedduk.

Maybe it's because I am a noob still in the Mirage, but I got shot down regularly by red fighters regardless the chaff and flares I am spamming in a defensive maneuver. I guess it's not only related to my noobish M2k skills.

On the other hand I agree with one of the posts before: the SARH hits only 1 out of 10 shots. Mostly I loose radar lock, before the missile hits. Often very close before impact. That's everything else than effective.

 

I can't agree that it breaks the immersion of BF just because people like this only fully modeled fighter jet and have it on both sides. If the Mirage wasn't there I simply wouldn't fly fighter jets at all in DCS because I like the fully modeled acft. only. All others are just "arcade"-type and THAT breaks immersion!

[OnlyforDCS]

Oh man, wow this thread really took a nosedive. I've played a couple of Rounds on Blue Flag now. I play rarely because of RL and time issues. I chose RED this time because I read here that they have problems with numbers, and it also fits my lonewolfy style.

 

I think that Blue Flag is a lot of fun. One of the reasons I feel that way is because my fighter of choice has a chance at parity with the bigger jets, due to weapons restrictions. However certain "members" of the community seem to feel that my fighter of choice is way too "OP"! If this forum's rules permitted it I wouldn't mince words and use expletives about how I feel about that.

 

I mostly play on Open Conflict, and 104th, think Ill take my "OP" fighter back there. :mad:

[-Painter-]

What does "OP" stand for here?

[CrashO]

The point is, it breaks the immersion and balance, being only full-fidelity fighter. .

If immersion is the point, it's the FC3 arcade stuff that should be removed, Not the only fully simulated plane. :D

[QuiGon]

What does "OP" stand for here?

 

over powered

[*Rage*]

So the full fidelity module breaks the immersion, while FC3 helps for the immersion :D thats funny :)

 

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The D2M on the mirage variant modelled in DCS is completely made up. Only the ground attack variant has it. By the same token if we get a Mig23 I could ask for some of the Mig27 features because they kinda look the same?

 

Saying that I wouldn't want the Mirage removed.

Edited February 23, 2017 by ///Rage

[metzger]

The D2M on the mirage variant modelled in DCS is completely made up. Only the ground attack variant has it. By the same token if we get a Mig23 I could ask for some of the Mig27 features because they kinda look the same?

 

Saying that I wouldn't want the Mirage removed.

Even though it is far more simulated than fc3. Note that this irst of the russian jets is far less effective irl, it doesn't work in heavy clouds, moisture, rain, hot sun etc.. obtaining a lock with it is much harder irl than in DCS. HMS is very arcady, irl isfar less reliable and much harder to operate than fc3 aircraft.

 

It is like sayin "hey this a-10c breaks the immersion cause everyone flying it. Remove it to have better balance between a10a and su25"

 

Anyway I got his point it just sounds funny to say full modul breaks the immersion and fc3 not :)

 

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[Fedduk]

If immersion is the point, it's the FC3 arcade stuff that should be removed, Not the only fully simulated plane. :D

 

I cant get the difference. Aerial combat remains the same in full-fidelity plane and in FC plane. You can click the switches, sure, but I have all important ones bound to keys, so there is no difference with FC planes, and when you know how to do things in mirage it became absolutely the same as any FC aircraft, you just push other buttons. Yes, you have to spend some time to learn the startup sequence, radar operation and weapon deployment, but essentially it is the same. Its an airplane, it flies, it shoots.

To be honest, removal of mirage is out of the question now, because so many pilots fly mirage only, but we can cut down its availability.

Note that this irst of the russian jets is far less effective irl

Same can be said about radars, chaff and other things.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Fedduk

[metzger]

Removing amraams also breaks the immersion :D

 

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[Fedduk]

Removing amraams also breaks the immersion :D

 

I'll just quit flying if they'll come back :D

[iLOVEwindmills]

What would get me to fly F15 and Su27 over the M2K more frequently is to remove the necessity spending 5+ mins minimized while waiting to pump fuel/put on missile/Start engines. Maybe it's impatience, but I like to spend most of my time doing things, even if its doing start up procedure.

 

I don't really see how removing fuel from M2K will change much, it has a small fuel tank that fills fast and you can do start up and arming while it is fuelling. Fuelling will be close to done by the time start up is complete, when you add waiting for radar to warm up it makes essentially no difference.

 

Fighter spam for airbase defense is already possible with M2K, F15 with externals and 27 with 20% fuel. Is it really an issue right now? I feel like the life system already prevents this from being a big problem.

 

Maybe not start 15/27/29 with 100% fuel but give them like 70% or so, slows things down a little bit without making take off 'instant'.

 

I guess in short, rather bring the FC3 planes up rather than make a 'nerf' to M2K that I don't think will change anything anyway for the above reasons. I do wish FC3 planes at some point will be able to refuel/arm with engines running like full fidelity modules, feels weird atm that they have different rules.

Edited February 23, 2017 by iLOVEwindmills

[D4n]

we don't have GCI players

 

Not true. we have plenty. Many have CA and GCI experience.

 

What just happened? Mass disconnect? o_O

[The_Dan]

I cant get the difference. Aerial combat remains the same in full-fidelity plane and in FC plane. You can click the switches, sure, but I have all important ones bound to keys, so there is no difference with FC planes, and when you know how to do things in mirage it became absolutely the same as any FC aircraft, you just push other buttons. Yes, you have to spend some time to learn the startup sequence, radar operation and weapon deployment, but essentially it is the same. Its an airplane, it flies, it shoots.

 

Thats not true. How many keys do you need to drop the tanks in an F-15? How many do you need for the M2000C? How many Keys for the FC3 planes for your counter measures and how many in M2000C? Don't forget Master Arms switch and other things you obviously didn't consider (gun modes, IFF...).

 

To be honest, removal of mirage is out of the question now, because so many pilots fly mirage only, but we can cut down its availability.

 

Same can be said about radars, chaff and other things.

 

Cut down the availability is an approach that i think should be used more often for "balancing". I don't like multiplayer in DCS as it is right now, mostly because of balancing mirror matches (M2000C for both sides in Blue Flag for example).

Maybe it is possible to use some Kind of script that enables more slots for particular planes if some people fly a minimal number of other planes or something.

 

And, by the way, the M2000C is not the only fully modeled (multirole) fighter in DCS, there is the MIG-21 too.

[lemoen]

And, by the way, the M2000C is not the only fully modeled (multirole) fighter in DCS, there is the MIG-21 too.

 

The Mig21 is woefully outgunned by the more modern planes. Unable to find and fight modern planes and DCS's spotting system makes the tiny ground targets impossible to see. Not a good comparison to the M2000 in this case.

[sirscorpion]

What would get me to fly F15 and Su27 over the M2K more frequently is to remove the necessity spending 5+ mins minimized while waiting to pump fuel/put on missile/Start engines. Maybe it's impatience, but I like to spend most of my time doing things, even if its doing start up procedure.

 

I don't really see how removing fuel from M2K will change much, it has a small fuel tank that fills fast and you can do start up and arming while it is fuelling. Fuelling will be close to done by the time start up is complete, when you add waiting for radar to warm up it makes essentially no difference.

 

Fighter spam for airbase defense is already possible with M2K, F15 with externals and 27 with 20% fuel. Is it really an issue right now? I feel like the life system already prevents this from being a big problem.

 

Maybe not start 15/27/29 with 100% fuel but give them like 70% or so, slows things down a little bit without making take off 'instant'.

 

I guess in short, rather bring the FC3 planes up rather than make a 'nerf' to M2K that I don't think will change anything anyway for the above reasons. I do wish FC3 planes at some point will be able to refuel/arm with engines running like full fidelity modules, feels weird atm that they have different rules.

 

 

I agree with this, we already jumped the shark with su27 having 20% fuel, so in the end they can still "insta take off and do damage"

 

I would hate to see one of the only viable DCS fighters get nerfed simply for the fact that refueling is an issue. Give FC3 fighters 50~70% fuel and they will be more viable.

 

And for mig21 and F5 if it is possible give them 8 Lives "or no live use at all" to balance the risk factor. If that was the case i will 100% use them way more.

[Fedduk]

Thats not true. How many keys do you need to drop the tanks in an F-15? How many do you need for the M2000C?

In F-15 I use 1 key, in Mirage - 0. I just pull 10 gees and suddenly there is no fuel tank. Ok, 3 keys if I want to do it proprely. I can do macros and make it 1 key easily.

I toggle master arm prior to combat (during startup usually)

I use 2 keys for CM in FC3 planes and in mirage - first for chaff, and panic for flares.

So it is not actually harder in terms of combat employment, if you got used to it. But it is definitely better by performance.

We were flying lately as M2K+Su-27 or MiG-29 combo, and both soviet fighters burn fuel much faster than mirage both on normal and WEP. Mirage can easily fly for 3-5 minutes in combat burning away and get to base safely, while MiG will be bingo after 1-2 mins or faster. Not to mention that mirage, suddenly, has superior handling, maneurability, acceleration/deceleration, low-speed performance and such.

Add to that a D2M and missiles that barely miss and I really cant see a reason to fly anything but mirage. When I launch 530D or magic I'm pretty confident it wiil hit (of course if there is no mountains and if it was laucned on appropriate distance, while with R-27 I'm genuinely surprised when it hits.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Fedduk

[*Rage*]

In F-15 I use 1 key, in Mirage - 0. I just pull 10 gees and suddenly there is no fuel tank. Ok, 3 keys if I want to do it proprely. I can do macros and make it 1 key easily.

I toggle master arm prior to combat (during startup usually)

I use 2 keys for CM in FC3 planes and in mirage - first for chaff, and panic for flares.

So it is not actually harder in terms of combat employment, if you got used to it. But it is definitely better by performance.

We were flying lately as M2K+Su-27 or MiG-29 combo, and both soviet fighters burn fuel much faster than mirage both on normal and WEP. Mirage can easily fly for 3-5 minutes in combat burning away and get to base safely, while MiG will be bingo after 1-2 mins or faster. Not to mention that mirage, suddenly, has superior handling, maneurability, acceleration/deceleration, low-speed performance and such.

Add to that a D2M and missiles that barely miss and I really cant see a reason to fly anything but mirage. When I launch 530D or magic I'm pretty confident it wiil hit (of course if there is no mountains and if it was laucned on appropriate distance, while with R-27 I'm genuinely surprised when it hits.

 

+1

[Frostie]

Thats not true. How many keys do you need to drop the tanks in an F-15? How many do you need for the M2000C? How many Keys for the FC3 planes for your counter measures and how many in M2000C? Don't forget Master Arms switch and other things you obviously didn't consider (gun modes, IFF...).

 

 

Countermeasure switch should be set before entering combat depending on expected threat, panic button is for that alternate reason so basically two buttons. Gun mode is one button and then you get options to suit, this is a bonus. As for the others why would you be pressing these buttons in the middle of A2A combat, IFF should be set, tanks should be gone...

[metzger]

ED should do all aircraft for MP the same with different skins and balance problems solved :)

 

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[Coxy_99]

ED should do all aircraft for MP the same with different skins and balance problems solved :)

 

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Id say just in any event everyone flies the same module and the same weapon comes down to skill then, Great idea. :thumbup: