American 77 Flight Data Recorder Released (9/11 Pentagon)

[Guest IguanaKing]

If the Pentagon part was a real terrorist attack, then it must have years of preparation. After years you wont miss a big stucture with a controlabble plane.

 

And since when the goal of terrorism is to kill peoples? The goal is bring fear and destroy hope, althougt killing is a reasonable way to achive it.

 

I'm sorry...has anyone suggested that the participants DIDN'T have years of training and preparation before this event?

[Mechanist]

If they don't that proves my point. If you have one chanse in your whole life, you will train yourself until you will 100.0000000000000% sure you will succed at that one moment that counts. Thats called human nature.

[Pilotasso]

Garauntees in an infiltration and terrorist strike?

 

Like in an armed conflict, I never heard anything of the sort, you just invented that concept. ;)

[Guest IguanaKing]

If they don't that proves my point. If you have one chanse in your whole life, you will train yourself until you will 100.0000000000000% sure you will succed at that one moment that counts. Thats called human nature.

 

So, again, who has suggested anything which would prove your point? Its a well-known fact that those involved had lived in the US on Resident Alien cards for years, many of them were even documented as having taken flying lessons for years. These were definitely not wannabe Johnny Jihadis who woke up one morning and decided to attack the US. They were patient and calculating, and that is the WORST kind of enemy anyone could deal with. ;)

[Mechanist]

Agreed!

 

And the worst kind of enemy kick you in the nuts :)

The Pentagon is far from beeing Americas Balls :D

 

My last words for tonight: History is allways written by winners.

Jó éjszakát! (good night)

[Guest IguanaKing]

I respect your opinion as someone who lives outside the US, but the Pentagon is the very scrotum that contains America's balls. :smilewink:

 

Good night to you as well, I know its getting quite late in Europe. Sleep fast, dude. :D

[Pilotasso]

LMAO it will be a pleasant sleep with all those body parts floating arround my imaginary! Thanks! :D

 

Never heard so much about the weist down mixed up with politics since the last time I watched "Team America" ROFLES. :lol:

[Guest IguanaKing]

I'd suggest certain photos on a site dedicated to a very lovely and talented young lady who appeared in a certain magazine in March of 2005 to get those other images out of your head...but then again, the content might get me banned. :D

[capttrob]

"The elevation for that highway is ~40 feet above sea level according to Google Earth?"

 

I like Google Earth as much as anyone, but - have they seen Gibraltar?

 

-SK

 

 

Google Earth is accurate in and around the pentagon. It has been matched with the US Geological Survey.

[Guest IguanaKing]

I apologize for my previous digressions from the topic, but is that site suggesting that the supposed hijacker of Flight 77 could not have done this, simply because a couple of CFIs failed him on his ability to land? One thing that article leaves out is that CFIs teach a pilot to land an aircraft, with both it and all on board surviving undamaged...somehow this does not apply to the event in question. ;)

 

About the box cutters and relative sizes, yes, any armchair, monday-morning quarterback can make those statements...but again they fail to take into account the doctrine of the time in dealing with hijackers. The doctrine was to cooperate and not do anything to endanger the aircraft. The logic in following this doctrine was to best assure the safe return of the aircraft and all those on board. It was simple...don't fight...and you'll endure a few weeks in some middle-eastern s**t-hole of an airport, but at least you'll be alive, and free to go home soon. These days, things are different...average passengers are stepping up and beating the s**t out of anyone who poses a threat to the aircraft. But, with all due respect to your link, things were NOT that way when the 9-11 attacks happened.

[Reaper-6]

Tough subject no matter what you may believe, because in the end unless your just one evil b@stard it was an epic tragedy. But the most important thing is no matter what side you may take, it is a search for the truth, and even if one of our own is found to be responsible thru so much as negligence or knowing complacency, we want them hung from the highest yard-arm. The bottom line is no one asked you to do your job, if your unable or unwilling to do the right thing, leave, someone else will fill the gig.

 

The first thing we must admit is that the Gov’t is capable of or attempting to, lie and deceive on a global scale. Whether it’s a black aircraft project or one of their political scandals, large secrets are able to be kept by many, as long as everyone in the loop has some level of culpability. Only when asses start hitting the fire will you reach a tipping point for those more squirrelly elements not willing to go down with the ship. We don’t get the full story, that is the only thing we do know for sure.

 

Then we must also admit that private institutions (banks, oil, conglomerates, ect.) have a detrimental effect on all nations large and small. And these relationships have in the past (recent & farflung) fostered conditions of “imperial commerce” in which many die and more suffer under force of arms and propaganda from a larger power or their “puppet“ Gov‘t. If you don’t believe, please read “War is a Racket” by USMC Gen. Bulter 1935, it is a short but enlightening read that I think should be required reading for all high school children. If you want to fight, fight, but know how and why your there aside from patriotism.

 

The whole damn thing is suspicious to me. From the wingless hole in the pentagon to the only three high-rise buildings (WTC 1,2 & 7) in the history of the world to collapse of fire.

 

I arrived at WTC’s on the 13th with my boss a Mechanic and another Operator along with a fleet of Teamsters hauling the disassembled 700t Liebherr and 1000t Manitowoc Crawler Cranes. The Liebherr went up right away but we had to hold on assembling the Manitowoc because of the concern it’s weight and footprint would collapse the already compromised slurry wall.

 

In the time the cities Structural Engineers took to trig out the risk of placing the 1000 ton’r I worked with the Iron Workers cutting & rigging on #2. It was just under a week before they gave us the O.k. to assemble the Manitowoc 21000. The consensus of the Iron Workers and Operating Engineers was “No F*cking Way” ...to a man. At first I didn’t think much about hearing this repeatedly, it was after all an incredibly daunting and emotional site. But later when I got back on the high rise I was on before they pulled me for the WTC I thought of the buildings and iron I had hoisted over the years I realized that while nothing is impossible, the complete collapse of a steel framed building from fire is as unlikely as it will ever get. And for there to be 3, well that pushes it too far imo.

 

As far as the Fire Retardant goes, I have to deal with it on every job site. The jack@sses who spray it usually get it all over part of the Tower Crane sections that face the building as they’re doing their work (sloppily) and I have to have the Laborers on the job or the Yard Dogs that work at our facility sand blast it off.

 

I am not a Jet Fuel expert, but I have been in steel mills since my Grand Father (a Mill Foreman) took me to work with him on Saturdays at the age of 5. And have worked refitting Mills across America as an Operator while the Mill was still in operation. I have sat as a Overhead Operator has set a 2 story pouring vessel (just emptied) right next to my Mobile Crane, at 30ft the just emptied vessel exploded 2 of the front tires on the Demag 500 and melted anything plastic on the Machine. I had my Jeep top and passenger tires melted away as an apprentice because I parked too close to the train tracks that brought the ingots out of the mill. I have watched Mill Workers form and cut bright red/yellow/white steel and it is not an easy task, even with the Machines meant to do it.

 

From Mill Worker to Iron Worker to Operator (and many Structural Engineers and Firemen) our experience tells us that those buildings should not have collapsed completely. To the impact points and above sure, and a couple floors below depending on the respective top weights yes, but all…no. Take it for what it’s worth, but remember these Tradesmen have been doing this for a very long time and a few of those I spoke to worked as apprentices on the WTC’s erection in the 70‘s.

 

The Tradesmen deserve a lot of credit they will never receive, the first responders were just not equipped to deal with it. The Operator (Art Fieler) that went up to WTC with me ended up staying the whole time Operating the 700t Liebherr because the NY IUOE didn’t have anyone squared away to operate it, he suffers worsening lung problems to this day.

 

I still have my time cards from that gig, I never turned them in.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Reaper, those are lucid points, but you also must remember that the three structures you mention were also subjected to an impact by a high-speed, high mass object. The historical structures in question were subjected to only one stress, thermal stress from a fire. ;)

 

Back to the relative height and weight of the human beings involved...it just suddenly occured to me that this position is even more of a fallacy than I originally contended. Many times, in most aircraft, the advantage will actually be with the one who is best able to move about in that area of the aircraft. In other words...I'm 6'1 and weigh 195 pounds, but if I am flying a Piper Meridian, and MiniMe comes after me with a plastic fork...MiniMe is gonna kick my a**, EVERY TIME. He is small enough to move more freely in that environment. I, on the other hand, am not. :)

[Pilotasso]

No disrespect intended Reaper 6, but no matter how many life times you could have spent choping up red hot steel bars, you can never grasp the true nature of the forces ivolved on the towers collapse just by comparing muscle work with the momentum of 10 to 20 floors traveling down in anger.

 

Nothing in your carreer nor the steelworkers experience could ever anticipate the impact of a disaster of this dimention to say the building would never colllapse under these circunstances. Theres no real comparison with the WTC and classic building fires.

 

I find it a bit too hard to swallow that even international engineers would collaborate with US goverment to hide anything or that they are any less qualified than steelworkers to say what would bring down WTC or not.

 

Because everytime I heard engineers speak of it, not 1 has ever said the towers should have ever had held on with the top fraction of the building falling down to the base. I have watched many serious discussions on TV that referred engineers were sent to monitor the situation in the towers after the fire propageted down the elevators pit, and they referred the fear the structure was not going to hold due visible signs of yeld.

 

 

If you look to what hapened you will see that US has not gained anything with 9/11 but a harsh dose of reality for what not to do in the future. To me its a bit going off too far to suspect 9/11 was a conspiracy to benifit some companies in the US because the trade off was horribly higher than the potential proffit. All the thousands of people who collaborated in the preparation of the attacks NOT ONE has leaked the conspiracy when the US couldnt even keep the secret prisons under wraps when the CIA and few goverments ever knew about them.

If you think well none of this makes much sense except something that has been boiling up these past decades that fits in this story much better. That is loose ends the west left to deal with. That consists in the whole present civilizational conflict caused by long lasting tensions ever since US and european sloppy politics decided to put israel on the map without consulting its neighbors or knowing anything about their local balances of power nor sorting out the right friendships when arming up thugs to fight off the soviets ignoring what would hapen to all that assistence once the russians went back across the border.

 

In short, you cant just solve problems in the short term and hope to sweep the consequences under a rug , forget all about it and them blaim your goverment because it felt the need to improve the countries economy, as if it ever needed to do so, on top of that sacrificing thousands of its own citizens!

[Reaper-6]

No offence taken say what you will, I don’t bring my pocket book in here.

 

I miswrote or you misread, I meant no collusion between the IUOE and the US Gov’t.

 

Who better to understand what happen, how and why if not the men who built it and many like it ? We are taught collapses thru-out our apprenticeships, it‘s kinda a vocal theme when you build big. How many pieces of iron have you flew, un/chained, hauled, climbed, caught, welded, connected, drift-pinned, chain-fell, cut or bolted ? How many building or steel structure or crane collapses have you been on ? I’ll wager myself and the men I talked to did or were on more.

 

An Engineer standing outside watching…lol

 

Even Osama is taped saying he only thought the floors above would collapse, and he an Engineer also. lol

 

So while I respect the math and disciplines of the analysts sitting at their desks, I’ll believe the men that were there, hands & eyes on, and did it.

 

I think you may have the scale of the items I work with and am talking about a little wrong. And while I do agree that the WTC is a precedent unto itself, the forces do not escape us, they are measurable.

 

Didn‘t the Architect of the WTC say that he designed it for airline impact ? I thought he did, but just didn’t consider the fuel the plane would carry.

 

The problem seems to be getting stuck in either the impact or the fire to explain the collapse. The Architect says his building can withstand the impact.

 

The Scientists, Engineers & Metallurgist say JP fuel burns at X deg. & that the steels half strength was X deg. & the steel should have held.

 

Either way, neither one adds up. Perhaps it’s an obvious but yet unseen combination of the two that allowed the “pan-caking” of the floors to begin.

 

I do believe resonance played it’s part of course just like any other force of nature not on break that day.

 

The best explanation I’ve heard, and there seem to be many, points to the angle clips failing as the steel sagged pulling it‘s own ends away from the walls. They are the weak link in a building.

 

Ya added some stuff on me…

 

The US did get a lot, beginning with unchallenged deployment flanking or occupying the most productive resource valuable real estate on the planet along with it‘s European pipe line route thru Afghanistan. Did you ever play Risk ? They also got to keep the “Petro-Euro” at bay for a few more years although I seen Shanghi just fired up an oil exchange recently. And theirs is likely to be multi-denomination exchange. So their reserves won’t be tied to any one currency.

 

Not so much a conspiracy theory as an awareness that something big was on it’s way and then an effort to capitalize on the circumstances. Hell Condolezza Rice was calling Mayors warning them not to fly that day. Along with the “Shock and Awe” Wolfowitz and his boys wrote the year before 9/11, which explains to the party that without a galvanizing event like Pearl Harbor their political agenda would not fly. Yes any reasonable person would cast a suspicious eye to their leadership, especially if they then “misrepresented” themselves in the initiation of yet another additional war. If your watching, just about everything they have said to us and the plan, reasoning or evidence behind it has been “flawed“. What should we be doing ?

 

Israel fought for what they have just like everyone else with help from whom ever they could get just like everyone else. But they (GB/US) did divide things up poorly to say the least after WW2. The Arabs gave it a shot and blew it. And while they bemoan the Palestinian cause (and they do have it rough) no Arab nation has offered them a home, they don‘t want them either. The Palestinians I will never understand, they cannot even be cool while Israel is giving sh*t up to them. And I consider all the people they have sent in suicide bombs attacks just a giant waste of good and willing fighters. Give me one man willing to let an Israeli tank roll over him while all the rest film it, instead of running around throwing alley apples and blowing their appendages to the four corners, and I’ll win the conflict. I couldn’t get Jerusalem, but everything else would be theirs.

 

But I agree that all these politicians and policies have screwed up on mass, no matter the nation. More college educated morons.

 

While 9/11 was a “spectacle” of an attack, and not to minimize the lives lost or sacrificed. We kill 5 times as many of ourselves with guns just staying within our borders each year. What has the Taliban or Iraqi “insurgents” done that’s worse than what we do to ourselves ? Hell the appliances that we fix our breakfasts with kill more of us than the “enemy” does each year.

 

Anyone still involved at any level even in a discussion, after 5 years is most likely not looking for quick fixes.

[leafer]

Yeah...

 

There was a company ran by Isrealis in one of the towers. I can't recall the name (think it a bank) but they cleared out of the building only days before the attack. Days! Before they hauled butt, they put out warnings to FBI, CIA, etc about the possible attack, but no one listened. Although the FBI did warn you know who about the Saud financing terrorists and psoosble attack by planes months earlier but Shrub pulled the plug on the investigation into the Saud family.

 

I'll give you all this. It's the best thing given to me by someone I don't know. I used to live in LA and was a complete tool and an ignorant fool just milling through life like I couldn't care less. One night while driving down the 710, this guy cut in front of me, in the back window of his car was a hand written sign, "KPFK 90.7 invaluble information". So I turned to the station just cuz I was wondering what kind of stuff the idiot listens to. Of course, I don't think he's an idiot now. That station changed my life, it educates this uneducated slum fool. :) Really opens my eyes.

 

Anyway, If you live in Los Angeles, it's imparitive you listen to it. They're listener sponsered. An independant media so they don't hold back and give you filtered news like umm...Fox, NBC and the rest.

 

During the start of the war, while those stations sent imbeded reporters to Iraq, KPFK sent non imbeded reporters and boy... Nothing like hearing the war live and as is and as it should be told. These guys were in a hotel, in the middle of the U.S. bombing campaign. I was listening to it, live, as bombs fell around them, it was scary. Definitely nothing like what Fox showed and tried to play it down. :D

 

They also exposed the U.S. military's claim on the outcome of rigged missile defense testing. Not sure if the missile were made by Raytheon or Lockheed but scientists from MIT were involved in the process. One of the scientists from MIT came on the show with tons of document exposing the test as rigged. She gave the account of how the U.S. military was doing everything in their power to shut her up including dirty tactics. Threatening her and her family report. Amy Goodman, the host of the show tried to get someone from the military on the show but no one wanted a part of it. And of course, nothing about it on Fox or from that fool O'Reilly on the O'Reilly factor. NBC did air a five second bit about it and moved on to something more military friendly. lol

 

Give it a try. Especially for you Americans which is bombarded by crap from the mainstream media. Do yourselves a favor and check out gregpalast.com. Or read Noam Chomsky's and Robert Frisk's stuff. These guys are regular on Kpfk. Or visit Democracynow.org

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

:D

 

First, I ain't no conspirator. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

 

Just read your posts reaper, agreed. Yes, Osama is an engineer and the towers were designed to withstand impact from commercial airplane. Did anyone ever get a chance to inspect the metal from the towers? I read some where no one did and they were shipped over to (Cuba?) in a hurry.

[Chandawg]

but you also must remember that the three structures you mention were also subjected to an impact by a high-speed, high mass object.

 

 

only 2 were hit by planes

[Stormin]

After reading some of this conspiracy crap my moonbat detector is pegged.

[JG27_Arklight]

After reading some of this conspiracy crap my moonbat detector is pegged.

 

Lmao

 

Black Helicopters.....

[Raploc]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6422842824047450841&q=Penn+and+Teller+duration%3Along

 

Oh and don't forget your tinfoilhat:music_whistling:

[ALDEGA]

Whatever the full truth may be, many questions remain unanswered.

 

Trusting the US government after the "mobile chemical weapons truck" < evidence > (as presented by our dear friend Powell) and "WMD's in Iraq" (which Bush recently denounced as "we were wrong") ...

 

Make up your own mind.

[yamangman]

...and 40 years from now, we will still be asking the same questions....

 

Like 'How will the human race survive when it's full of so many gullible fools?'

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yup, some people actually believe that the security camera footage of the Pentagon impact didn't exist...when it was actually shown for several hours on every news network on the day itself.

 

As for the Israeli company clearing out of the building. Hmmm...Rosh Hashanah maybe? It started on September 18th that year. Maybe they left a little early to be with their families on that holiday. Not saying that's why they left, but its a strong possibility.

[tflash]

Youtube has a lot of video's on this event:

 

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=flight+77+pentagon

 

PS conspiracy theories are for lunatics; don't even start listening to that crap.

[Dudikoff]

To me its a bit going off too far to suspect 9/11 was a conspiracy to benifit some companies in the US because the trade off was horribly higher than the potential proffit. All the thousands of people who collaborated in the preparation of the attacks NOT ONE has leaked the conspiracy when the US couldnt even keep the secret prisons under wraps when the CIA and few goverments ever knew about them.

 

I won't go into this conspiracy discussion, but I'd comment on what you said. I don't like this "no-leakes" argument because there were no leaks in the Kennedy assasination so am I supposed to believe that Oswald was the lone shooter? And I wouldn't place information that some potential terrorists being held in some camp and mistreated in the same basket as a government conspiracy in regard to ease of keeping it secret.

 

BTW, you wouldn't need *that* much people for something like this. For instance (strictly hypothetically speaking), it would be enough just to ignore the information that the attack will take place.

 

What horrible trade-off are we talking about? The country suffered as a whole, yes, but if anyone in power had part in something like this, do you really think they care about what happens to the citizens/soldiers/etc?

[Guest IguanaKing]

The difference with the Oswald case is that only one person didn't come home that day, and none of those three bullets had over 100 people sitting inside of them. ;)

 

As for ignoring the warnings. Do you have any idea how many terror threats the US government received on a daily basis? They have to prioritize, based on what is feasible. A coordinated attack of this type was not deemed as feasible because it had not yet been demonstrated using the same means.