Burning Skies Stats aka the Caucasus Turkey Shoot ;)

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

well, for the stats i couldnt care less, except that i would want to see them vanish again, as they are reason for lots of really ugly online behaviour.

also, they are not telling much in regards of aircraft performance, not until the pilots really got used to fly the spit to its limits for quite a while...years pretty much

 

 

as for damage model, we all know its being worked on, and we all hope we will get it rather sooner than later...anyway, the 109 is way more advanced and vulnerable than the p51 for example(it has radiator leaks, it has fuel leaks, lost control surfaces which actually do make a difference, lost rudder=flat spin=dead)

 

but yes Krupi, im all for giving the spit 25lbs boost as an option, and im totally with you about more aircraft variants...especially as they have the base already...a 109K4 isnt that far off from any other 109 version, im sure they could use it as a workbase and start from there. i would assume that development time would be decreased for creating any new 109 variant compared to a completely new aircraft. and we will need these variations...

[DefaultFace]

Please respond in this thread...

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3063974#post3063974

 

To a certain degree yes, however if your aircraft has superior speed then you don't have to be a very good pilot to make like hell for a spitfire, hence the number of reds in the top 20.

 

As I said in the above thread, I haven't properly flown in the 109 for quite sometime and yet was able to jump in it the other day and very quickly shot down 5 aircraft 2 P-51 and 3 Spits. Now if I were to fly it enough to become competent again with the 30mm that number would only increase. Also the workload of the 109 is extremely low you do not have to manage the db605.

 

So to sum up the only thing you need to do to become a skilled pilot in a 109 is learn how to get deflection shots off with the 30mm and use the speed to get out of a tricky situation. So to sum up you simply cannot say it is all down to the pilot, it is also very much down to the aircraft.

 

PLEASE CAN A MOD MOVE THE LAST TWO POSTS TO THE NEW THREAD, THANKS

 

First off, I'm going to disagree with you that most of the pilots on the first page are there only because they fly fast aircraft. I know and have flown with or against most of the pilots on the first page and most of them certainly know what they are doing, and are certainly capable of getting kills no matter what aircraft they are flying.

 

The next thing is, the way BS ranks pilots is..... strange at best. It is very easy to fly in a way that improves your statistics, without needing to necessarily be particularly proficient. The best way to have good statistics is to never die, and to have at least 1 or 2 kills per sortie (ie every time the wheels leave the ground, dont land till you killed 2 guys). The best way to do this is to fly around with a full tank and be patient enough to not go into a furball and just bnz until you meet your quota and then land. Alot of people flew very cautiously to try and get into the grudge match. Ever since the qualifying has been over I've gone back to flying the way that is more fun for me ie Dogfighting. Despite making more kills per mission, having more fun and generally flying better I've lost 3 spots in the ranking because I occasionally (regularly) go into a dogfight I shouldnt. Curiously sorting by total air wins shows a page with 5 allies and 5 axis pilots.

 

Now statistics aside, I still don't believe that the 109 is that much easier to fly (in most cases, more later) than the allied planes. I flew a mission in the Mustang the other day and got 4 kills. That's more than I'll get on an average 109 sortie. I don't see that as evidence that the P-51 is a noob plane though, just that I got lucky and that I wasn't up against great axis pilots on that sortie.

 

IMO in the more typical type of combat in DCS, which is a furball on the deck, the spit is the best aircraft to fly, no questions asked. That turn rate and vertical fighting ability is unbeatable in capable hands. The problem is, now that the spit has been out a while most german pilots won't go into a dogfight with a spit on even terms and will run away(where the speed helps). I can tell you first hand that dogfighting with a spit is really not easy. Even if you know what you're doing a poor pilot can easily capitalise on your mistakes in a close in fight. That is pretty much why most average and below average 109 pilots won't even try to dogfight a spit on its own terms. Obviously as a spit pilot this is frustrating, it happens to me when I fly spits as well. As I've said before Mustangs do this all the time as well, and here the speed difference is much closer than 109 v spit.

 

The next thing is, although a 109 can get energy and come down on a spit with speed, bnz is incredibly difficult in the DCS 109. The stick forces make shooting a target who knows you are there (hint: they can hear you coming for some reason...) close to impossible. Spits can pull such tight turns, if you know what you're doing you can dodge a BnZ attack fairly effectively. And thats just if you know what you're doing. Here comes scenario number 2: you're a helpless noob on his first combat sortie and theres a 109 right behind you :O quick stomp the rudder and have a seizure on the control column. What follows is a maneuver that is 1: impossible in real life 2: makes you impossible to shoot at due to high stick forces in the 109 and 3: costs close to 0 Energy (nice job DCS!)

 

So moving on, the next type of fight I've noticed, which is very new to DCS is where the 109's speed really gives it a huge advantage over the spit. That is the higher altitude teamwork battles where everyone does large sweeping turns and tries to lure a guy behind him long enough for a teammate to come in and get him. Here the high speed and climb rate of the 109 make it excellent as you can grab an energy advantage almost at will. Obviously the spits lack of speed is a disadvantage here, and whilst the P-51 is much more suited to this style of combat it also can't climb as fast as the 109. Climbing is the 1 thing the 109 does really well. In anything but a spit XIV, you'll be at a disadvantage to a smart 109 pilot here.

 

As far as having a G6 or G14 in DCS, I completely agree with you here. Both are much more fitting for the 1944 timeframe. However depending on what version you end up with the performance difference will probably not be as huge as you think it will. If we get an AS version the difference will be minimal. They will be slower, but will dogfight better. Non AS versions will dogfight much better at low altitude but will be way slower at high alt ( this would make a big difference at high altitudes, probably interesting for normandy but not on the burning skies). Either way the 109 will still climb better and be at least 10km/h faster than the spit IX. It would close the gap a bit but the things the 109 does better will still be better than the spit, and the things it does worse, will be a little less worse than the spit. In a dogfight I think a G would be tougher than a K4. In the other type of fight it would probably be much more vulnerable due to the reduction in speed.

 

Now if you model a G without MW50 (which started to be phased in early-mid 44, no idea in what numbers or exact dates) you have a 40% reduction in engine power which would certainly make the 109 much less competitive.

 

The other option is a spit XIV, which does everything better than everything and sounds like a noobwagon to me. Nevertheless I look forward to it's inclusion, and certainly have nothing against it being added to DCS.

 

Also what MAD said. I hope that the Normandy map will allow for some more spread out missions. The one on the Burning Skies is horrendous and honestly IMO brings out alot of the problems with DCS WWII atm.

 

At this point I'm not sure what else to say. I'm sure this post will anger some people. I don't think either side has it super easy atm in DCS. Certain aircraft excel in certain areas and some of these areas are easier to make use of than others. That is air combat. Learning to force your enemy to fight your fight and not his is how you win.

 

TL;DR the 109 isn't super duper easy to fly and kill stuff in, stop saying axis pilots are only good because they fly 109, Yes the spit is disadvantaged in some situations but has advantages in others, I want a G6/14 too, Please ED give us Normandy already so we don't have to fly from Anapa anymore, Did I mention I want a 109G?, also dogfighting>BnZ

 

S! DefaultFace

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

First off, I'm going to disagree with you that most of the pilots on the first page are there only because they fly fast aircraft. I know and have flown with or against most of the pilots on the first page and most of them certainly know what they are doing, and are certainly capable of getting kills no matter what aircraft they are flying.

 

The next thing is, the way BS ranks pilots is..... strange at best. It is very easy to fly in a way that improves your statistics, without needing to necessarily be particularly proficient. The best way to have good statistics is to never die, and to have at least 1 or 2 kills per sortie (ie every time the wheels leave the ground, dont land till you killed 2 guys). The best way to do this is to fly around with a full tank and be patient enough to not go into a furball and just bnz until you meet your quota and then land. Alot of people flew very cautiously to try and get into the grudge match. Ever since the qualifying has been over I've gone back to flying the way that is more fun for me ie Dogfighting. Despite making more kills per mission, having more fun and generally flying better I've lost 3 spots in the ranking because I occasionally (regularly) go into a dogfight I shouldnt. Curiously sorting by total air wins shows a page with 5 allies and 5 axis pilots.

 

Now statistics aside, I still don't believe that the 109 is that much easier to fly (in most cases, more later) than the allied planes. I flew a mission in the Mustang the other day and got 4 kills. That's more than I'll get on an average 109 sortie. I don't see that as evidence that the P-51 is a noob plane though, just that I got lucky and that I wasn't up against great axis pilots on that sortie.

 

IMO in the more typical type of combat in DCS, which is a furball on the deck, the spit is the best aircraft to fly, no questions asked. That turn rate and vertical fighting ability is unbeatable in capable hands. The problem is, now that the spit has been out a while most german pilots won't go into a dogfight with a spit on even terms and will run away(where the speed helps). I can tell you first hand that dogfighting with a spit is really not easy. Even if you know what you're doing a poor pilot can easily capitalise on your mistakes in a close in fight. That is pretty much why most average and below average 109 pilots won't even try to dogfight a spit on its own terms. Obviously as a spit pilot this is frustrating, it happens to me when I fly spits as well. As I've said before Mustangs do this all the time as well, and here the speed difference is much closer than 109 v spit.

 

The next thing is, although a 109 can get energy and come down on a spit with speed, bnz is incredibly difficult in the DCS 109. The stick forces make shooting a target who knows you are there (hint: they can hear you coming for some reason...) close to impossible. Spits can pull such tight turns, if you know what you're doing you can dodge a BnZ attack fairly effectively. And thats just if you know what you're doing. Here comes scenario number 2: you're a helpless noob on his first combat sortie and theres a 109 right behind you :O quick stomp the rudder and have a seizure on the control column. What follows is a maneuver that is 1: impossible in real life 2: makes you impossible to shoot at due to high stick forces in the 109 and 3: costs close to 0 Energy (nice job DCS!)

 

So moving on, the next type of fight I've noticed, which is very new to DCS is where the 109's speed really gives it a huge advantage over the spit. That is the higher altitude teamwork battles where everyone does large sweeping turns and tries to lure a guy behind him long enough for a teammate to come in and get him. Here the high speed and climb rate of the 109 make it excellent as you can grab an energy advantage almost at will. Obviously the spits lack of speed is a disadvantage here, and whilst the P-51 is much more suited to this style of combat it also can't climb as fast as the 109. Climbing is the 1 thing the 109 does really well. In anything but a spit XIV, you'll be at a disadvantage to a smart 109 pilot here.

 

As far as having a G6 or G14 in DCS, I completely agree with you here. Both are much more fitting for the 1944 timeframe. However depending on what version you end up with the performance difference will probably not be as huge as you think it will. If we get an AS version the difference will be minimal. They will be slower, but will dogfight better. Non AS versions will dogfight much better at low altitude but will be way slower at high alt ( this would make a big difference at high altitudes, probably interesting for normandy but not on the burning skies). Either way the 109 will still climb better and be at least 10km/h faster than the spit IX. It would close the gap a bit but the things the 109 does better will still be better than the spit, and the things it does worse, will be a little less worse than the spit. In a dogfight I think a G would be tougher than a K4. In the other type of fight it would probably be much more vulnerable due to the reduction in speed.

 

Now if you model a G without MW50 (which started to be phased in early-mid 44, no idea in what numbers or exact dates) you have a 40% reduction in engine power which would certainly make the 109 much less competitive.

 

The other option is a spit XIV, which does everything better than everything and sounds like a noobwagon to me. Nevertheless I look forward to it's inclusion, and certainly have nothing against it being added to DCS.

 

Also what MAD said. I hope that the Normandy map will allow for some more spread out missions. The one on the Burning Skies is horrendous and honestly IMO brings out alot of the problems with DCS WWII atm.

 

At this point I'm not sure what else to say. I'm sure this post will anger some people. I don't think either side has it super easy atm in DCS. Certain aircraft excel in certain areas and some of these areas are easier to make use of than others. That is air combat. Learning to force your enemy to fight your fight and not his is how you win.

 

TL;DR the 109 isn't super duper easy to fly and kill stuff in, stop saying axis pilots are only good because they fly 109, Yes the spit is disadvantaged in some situations but has advantages in others, I want a G6/14 too, Please ED give us Normandy already so we don't have to fly from Anapa anymore, Did I mention I want a 109G?, also dogfighting>BnZ

 

S! DefaultFace

 

+1000:thumbup: rep inbound next time.

[amazingme]

The first reason for introducing new and improved fighters in WW2 was to help mediocre pilots shoot down good pilots. With enough performance edge you can neutralize the skill gap. It's the pilot not the plane is something virtual pilots say when they're in the better plane.

 

We have no evidence that the players flying the 109 are more skilled other than the fact that they shoot down more of their enemies, and their victories beg the question as to whether it is their skill or the aircraft's abilities that makes the difference.

 

Without additional evidence/argument, it is a good premise that pilot skill is randomly distributed across the 4 WW2 fighters.

I was strictly referring to the top 20 of the Burning Skies.. as Krupi stated in his comment.

It's always the pilot's fault if he gets shut down.. no matter your opinion.

[DarkRaiderss]

Please respond in this thread...

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3063974#post3063974

 

To a certain degree yes, however if your aircraft has superior speed then you don't have to be a very good pilot to make like hell for a spitfire, hence the number of reds in the top 20.

 

As I said in the above thread, I haven't properly flown in the 109 for quite sometime and yet was able to jump in it the other day and very quickly shot down 5 aircraft 2 P-51 and 3 Spits. Now if I were to fly it enough to become competent again with the 30mm that number would only increase. Also the workload of the 109 is extremely low you do not have to manage the db605.

 

So to sum up the only thing you need to do to become a skilled pilot in a 109 is learn how to get deflection shots off with the 30mm and use the speed to get out of a tricky situation. So to sum up you simply cannot say it is all down to the pilot, it is also very much down to the aircraft.

 

PLEASE CAN A MOD MOVE THE LAST TWO POSTS TO THE NEW THREAD, THANKS

 

 

 

For the top 20 in air kills on burning skies these are the kills for each plane type:

 

Spitfire - 606 kills

109 - 572 kills

P-51- 329 kills

190- 298 kills

 

The anomaly that is DavidRed :) was excluded to put the stats in a better prospective (so it's #2 through #21).

Edited February 27, 2017 by DarkRaiderss

[BIGNEWY]

I had a couple of hours in the server using a spit over the weekend.

 

I had fun

 

true story :)

[DefaultFace]

Pics or it didn't happen :P

[Krupi]

I will respond to the posts when I get home trying to do so on a phone is beyond irritating, however I am very amused that it is 109 pilots that are responding to this... Very telling :D

[BIGNEWY]

Pics or it didn't happen :P

 

live streamed :)

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

BIGNEWY, did you finally experience that tracer bug?

[BIGNEWY]

BIGNEWY, did you finally experience that tracer bug?

 

no not yet, but my 2 hour session was mostly me trying not to die, and it was a split session.

 

I plan to do a 2 hour plus session this week to look again

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

nice to see your commitment!

[DefaultFace]

+1

[MAD-MM]

I will respond to the posts when I get home trying to do so on a phone is beyond irritating, however I am very amused that it is 109 pilots that are responding to this... Very telling :D

 

Because the most of refuse to say anything, because you be never right so long you fly most of the Time 109 and located in Germany/Austria and all other is luftwhiner and recently KZ jabbering from the last Spit vs P-51 Thread.

But after all I own all Modules and enjoy all of them as aviation enthusiast, and not as stubborn German must be better guy.

So would be never ask for slower 109 if that where so.

And also working is overrated skip the Phone :smilewink:

[RedShoes]

I’ve had close to 50 hours in a Spit at Burning Skies server over the past few weeks and I had fun.

Yes, I’ve had some frustrating moments too, much more in the Spit than I earlier had in 109,… but that is just the part of the learning process. Mostly it’s been a blast, sometimes literally.

Big thanks to eekz and also for the community for the nice / populated server!

 

My current stats on Spit vs. my stats on 109 during January session;

 

 

Jan Stats;

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IuTYZ8jHET4y_bh77JniSsChBouW01QJJT57VLM6qys/edit#gid=0

Current Stats;

http://burning-skies.vioo.com.ua/en/pilots/4/air-rating.html

 

I consider myself just an average pilot, but in less time I achieved more kills with much better AW% and huge difference in K/D ratio with 109, compared to Spit.

 

So, yes, I can partly correlate to Krupi’s claim. It can be a Caucasus Turkey Shoot!

In my view the 109 is currently almost the unbeatable German Wunderwaffe. Simply a much better air to air fighter.

 

As usual, the stats of course do not tell the whole truth!

I’ve had quite some hours in 109 before the Jan Session. Been playing DCS for about 1.5 years now and the 109 has been my favourite plane.

I basically just made sure I can somehow take off and land the Spit in single player, before going to Burning Skies in the current session to try it out. So a very green Spit pilot indeed.

On the other hand, I was flying the 109 much more in VR (Oculus Rift) than I have done with Spit so far. I find monitor and track-ir still better for spotting and SA than VR.

I was also flying 109 mostly as a lonely wolf, compared to Spit, where especially in the last days, I’ve had some awesome support from my team on Burning Skies TS server!

 

In the end it can be a lot of fun, regardless on which side you are on. Yes, I do feel it’s much more difficult currently for the Allied, but do not give up!

Get on Team Speak! Squad up. Fly with your buddies. A well coordinated allied team can wreck havoc, even if there is a Axis squad on TS on the opposing team.

It does take time to learn to fly the Spit to its full potential. People are still learning. I’m still far away from there myself. It’s still an early beta release with its problems. But I’m still having loads of fun flying and learning it.

 

Can’t wait for the Normandy map and some different missions compared to Caucasus Turkey Shot!

 

P.S. …interestingly, I have not seen any statistics on actually which side has won more of the missions???!!!

I’ve seen several times the blue side winning, but very, very rarely the red! Who cares about personal kill stats anyway, as an air force we have a mission to fill.

[Krupi]

Thank you RedShoes, nice to see another red & blue flyer agree.

 

I do agree that going on TS helps however like you pointed out you do not require a team to fly and be successful in a 109.

[MAD-MM]

RedShoes witch regards is the 109 wonder weapon compare to the Spit?

[Krupi]

I think it is fairly clear that he is saying that compared to all the other aircraft that it is a "wonder weapon"

[RedShoes]

RedShoes witch regards is the 109 wonder weapon compare to the Spit?

 

faster, climbs better, better energy retention, better more stable guns platform, 30mm + 2 x 13mm seems to hit much harder than the 2 x hispano + 4 x.303s

Would have to learn a bit more about stall fighting on a Spit, but currently I'd give point on 109 on this category too.

where as the Spit just turns better. And we have to remember the beta status with the Spit, especially wingsnaps, blackouts and lack of stability at speed still seems to be issues with it.

 

anyhow, I wrote almost the unbeatable German Wunderwaffe as the difference is not so big that a considerably better pilot can not bag a 109 in a Spit 1 on 1 starting equal e-state.

Edited February 27, 2017 by RedShoes
typo

[DefaultFace]

You've obviously never seen a good spit pilot. Try dogfighting David in the spit. Vertical, horizontal whatever you like that airplane is capable of a hell of alot in the hands of a good pilot. Sure I could run away. If I had a G14 in that situation I could to. But I better decide to do it fast because at equal energy if I decide to try I've got one or 2 turns before I'm committed.

[Krupi]

LOL committed until you decide it is time to speed off and come back with a height advantage ;)

[MAD-MM]

faster, climbs better, better energy retention, better more stable guns platform, 30mm + 2 x 13mm seems to hit much harder than the 2 x hispano + 3 x.303s

Would have to learn a bit more about stall fighting on a Spit, but currently I'd give point on 109 on this category too.

where as the Spit just turns better. And we have to remember the beta status with the Spit, especially wingsnaps, blackouts and lack of stability at speed still seems to be issues with it.

 

anyhow, I wrote almost the unbeatable German Wunderwaffe as the difference is not so big that a considerably better pilot can not bag a 109 in a Spit 1 on 1 starting equal e-state.

 

Spit is in a turn fight the far better in energy retention less drag trough the Wings, 109 can only score in the vertical with Power/to weight ratio..

so when we cut down this what is then left for a competitive dogfight in a 109 how you would resolve such a Problem? personal found far easier to shoot some one at high speeds with the Spit then 109 trough the 30 mm plop cannon with slow fire rate and extensive Stick Forces.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

well...whats the goal of this discussion really? to tell every 109 pilot he only has kills because he flies that certain aircraft? he must have no clue right, because he flies that uber plane, and skill is of no relevance, because he has the wonder weapon?

different aircraft have different advantages and disadvantages...if you want all equal, then we will have to create a pure airquake server where the same types fight each other, i.e. spit vs. spit....

 

if you don't like the disadvantages the one aircraft has, and dont know what to do with the advantages it has, then choose the other aircraft, which according to this discussion must be a total noob plane outturning and outclimbing ufo's, shooting lightenings out of its ass...

 

or you can wait for the Mk XIV, which i think, will dominate in every relevant discipline. but probably, we will see the same threads pop up, leading to nothing but anger, frustration, deleted posts and banned people.

 

really where should this be heading? we can hope that ED gives us more variety in future with either adding different boosts, fuel types and hopefully also more aircraft, but other than that, whats the purpose of this discussion? to attack people who are flying the 109?denying them skill because they fly that certain aircraft? cool, i fly the g6 from now on...oh wait, there is none...:doh:

[Talisman_VR]

well...whats the goal of this discussion really? to tell every 109 pilot he only has kills because he flies that certain aircraft? he must have no clue right, because he flies that uber plane, and skill is of no relevance, because he has the wonder weapon?

different aircraft have different advantages and disadvantages...if you want all equal, then we will have to create a pure airquake server where the same types fight each other, i.e. spit vs. spit....

 

if you don't like the disadvantages the one aircraft has, and dont know what to do with the advantages it has, then choose the other aircraft, which according to this discussion must be a total noob plane outturning and outclimbing ufo's, shooting lightenings out of its ass...

 

or you can wait for the Mk XIV, which i think, will dominate in every relevant discipline. but probably, we will see the same threads pop up, leading to nothing but anger, frustration, deleted posts and banned people.

 

really where should this be heading? we can hope that ED gives us more variety in future with either adding different boosts, fuel types and hopefully also more aircraft, but other than that, whats the purpose of this discussion? to attack people who are flying the 109?denying them skill because they fly that certain aircraft? cool, i fly the g6 from now on...oh wait, there is none...:doh:

 

I could be wrong David, but I don't think the Spit XIV with 18lbs boost will be as fast as to dominate the Bf 109K in level flight at the lower altitudes; I think the 109K still has the edge on speed in this instance. From reading the forums it looks like we will not get the higher boost Spit XIV.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[coopes]

There is a lot of bias, bullshit and crying in this thread.

 

In the current BS Feb stats I have flown all 4. The most being the Dora, being my favourite plane, followed by the P-51. I love all the planes and just want them to be as close to the real thing as possible.

 

The things bothering me after reading are these:

 

Allied pilots bitch the most I need these 75" this 25" that. Remember this was never intended to be a IL2 simulation which is why the a/c choices are as they are. The 51 is great and would do better if the damage model was better. When I fly allied the amount of pilots I see cruising along to attack at 3000 feet. You give yourself no options. You have a large sky, use it!

 

The 109 is the best plane, but I think there are some issue with it that I have voiced to the development team and left it with them to go over. This I have got from both fighting against and flying it in combat.

 

Defaultface seriously mate get your head out of DavidReds arse. He is a good pilot, I would like to see him fly more than just the 109 on BS, as when me and Tecnam have faced him in Dora's when he was in a Spit he spent most of the time in our gunsights. But ultimately he can fly what the hell he wants.

 

Pilot skill does have some degree of outcomes and can't be completely ignored saying it's just the plane they fly. Bullshit. You are still pulling the stick, making the decisions, some planes just allow you to make more mistakes then others!

 

The thing I want the most right now is damage model. The hit box style system is sucky and gives BS outcomes.

 

See you in the skies for both Red and Blue :thumbup: