Sandman1330 Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) Why do all DCS aircraft have such a propensity towards accelerated stall? Having flown high performance aircraft in aerobatics, I am informed enough to say that this tendency is highly unrealistic. It takes a significant pull to get most aircraft to accelerated stall at high speed. The A10 and Spitfire are bad for this, but manageable (there is another thread where an actual A10 pilot even says this is inaccurate). I just bought the Sabre, and it seems to be the worst of them all. According to the manual, corner speed should be around 300kts. Corner speed is the speed at which the aircraft will overstress before you cause a stall, and is the speed you want to be at for max turn rate. However, even at 300+ knots, the slightest pull causes an accelerated stall, at nowhere near the G force that it should (6+). Anywhere close to 200kts, I can't even turn the aircraft without it shuddering and losing aileron authority. Is the FM bugged? So far, flying this thing has been more of an exercise in frustration than fun. Edited March 18, 2017 by Sandman1330 Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msalama Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Is the FM bugged? No, but your joystick probably is - as is mine - since it's most likely a short-throw plastic jobbie (as is mine). Put some controller curves on and try again. The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 Yeah, increasing saturation and curve helped a bit (that's how I solve the problem in the Spitfire) It just still feels excessive in the Sabre... the above was a bit of a rage post too, I will admit ;) Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medic8ed Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 It's been a while since I flew the Sabre, but from what I can remember it's was quite sensitive to inputs and once I got a good curve on the joystick it was very manageable (and very maneuverable). Try experimenting with that first and see what you think, if you haven't already. :joystick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron886 Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 No, but your joystick probably is - as is mine - since it's most likely a short-throw plastic jobbie (as is mine). Put some controller curves on and try again. Agreed, but also be aware that no amount of curve will compensate for real flight controls. A high performance jet not only has a good 30 to 40 pounds of stick pressure required, but also increases with G. Control design is what makes high performance aircraft manageable in a lot of real-world scenarios, and we can only approximate that in simulation. That said, I think sim developers need to understand this and not get trapped by the desire to simulate an airplane using empirical math alone. Using highly realistic aerodynamic modeling is a waste if some tradeoffs are not made to compensate for desktop PC flight controls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 I think that's the difference. When you pull 6G, or even 4G, you FEEL it. The pull on the stick requires muscle, and your whole body feels it. It's just hard to simulate that, without good FFB. It's the resistance to the stick pull that I'm missing, so it makes it that much easier to pull past the critical AoA. I guess I don't have a good solution to how that could be better simulated... I think I'm also getting frustrated because I'm fighting the MiG. There have been plenty of posts already about the SFM and damage modelling that the AI enjoy. It seems that the SFM negates many of the MiG's weaknesses while allowing its strengths to show through. Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzles Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 I think I'm also getting frustrated because I'm fighting the MiG. There have been plenty of posts already about the SFM and damage modelling that the AI enjoy. It seems that the SFM negates many of the MiG's weaknesses while allowing its strengths to show through. If you want to do Sabre vs Mig, then online PvP is your best bet for the reasons you've just found. The AI cheats basically. Fancy trying Star Citizen? Click here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) Except I bought the module to play single player. I rarely play multiplayer, and a quick search just revealed no open servers that include the F86. I want to ask for a refund. If I can't play this thing single player, it defeats the purpose for me. Unfortunately, I'm willing to bet they won't give a refund. Last time I buy from Belsimtek. First they screw us on the promised multicrew for the helos, now they sell a module that is useless single player (doesn't even have a campaign?!). Edited March 18, 2017 by Sandman1330 Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterH Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 It is difficult at first, one can down the AI MiG-15 quite consistently after some (teeth grinding, fist clenching) practice. Funnily, hit it anywhere and it'll act like a bullet sponge, but a couple .50s touch the wing root and it's dead. If you are lucky, a burst hitting cockpit area can kill the pilot too. Since the AI MiG-15 seem to have a thrust to weight ratio of... well 15 I suppose? :D keeping my speed up, and remaining in lag pursuit, not trying to follow him up in vertical climbs unless I know I am in a good energy state relatively AND will be able to hit etc seemed to work for me. Other potential AI contestants you can try would be L-39ZA,Su-25, may be the WWII birds, and if you feel particularly "what-if happy" even the A-10 :D. While these may not be historically significant like legendary rivalry between the MiG-15 and F-86, they can provide a fun challenge due to roughly low performance gap between them and the Saber. Finally, if you are feeling particularly adventurous, you may have a go at the MiG-21Bis too. Finally, the Saber is actually a pretty great ground attacker! You may want to try those HVARs and bombs, and even some .50 strafing. One thing to consider, like others have pointed, would be that unlike how you did with real high performance aircraft, we fly with short and craptastic sticks, so if you have muscle memory from real flight sticks with long throws, you may be significantly over-commanding with a short throw stick. Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s, J35 Draken, Kfir C7, Mirage III/V DCS-Dismounts Script Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probad Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 perhaps you would want to withhold judgement until the revamped damage simulation hits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 Yeah, I`m just dealing with a bit of frustration. I withdrew my ticket for refund. I revamped the mission slightly, dropping AI skill to average. At least now I have a chance! He still manages manoeuvres that defy physics, but I do get a shot at him now and then... Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msalama Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 no amount of curve will compensate for real flight controls Nope, and I'm not claiming otherwise. The curves are just a way to make the controller more precise in the -50% - +50% deflection range. Sandman: chill mate, and at least wait for the DM overhaul before making up your mind one way or another ;) The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) Nope, and I'm not claiming otherwise. The curves are just a way to make the controller more precise in the -50% - +50% deflection range. Sandman: chill mate, and at least wait for the DM overhaul before making up your mind one way or another ;) Ya, I'm good now :thumbup: Back to my original thread, with more time working at it I've actually come to believe the flight model is very realistic. Loss of aileron authority near the stall, altitude effects on performance, and aggressive stall behaviour due to the swept wings. Initially I had thought this unrealistic because I was trying to keep up with the MiG. Now I know it's more to do with the AI. Edited March 19, 2017 by Sandman1330 Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrewdison Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 I never really fully understood curves, and what they did / how they help. I have a TM Warthog with extensions, would I still benefit from tweaking curves? I enjoy the Sabre, both for A2A and A2G, though I agree with all of the statements about the AI MiG-15s. Aside from the SFM issues, I've had many engagements where I can hit them enough that there's heavy smoke from their aircraft yet they keep on aggressively attacking / maneuvering as if the plane is functioning at 100%. I'd expect at that point they'd go defensive and try to bug out... but I'd also expect their performance to be diminished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRRP Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 I think I'm also getting frustrated because I'm fighting the MiG. There have been plenty of posts already about the SFM and damage modelling that the AI enjoy. It seems that the SFM negates many of the MiG's weaknesses while allowing its strengths to show through. Except I bought the module to play single player. I rarely play multiplayer, and a quick search just revealed no open servers that include the F86. @Sandman1330..... I strongly believe this server will offer you the experience you are looking for. If it would be helpful, jump in on the teamspeak channel detailed in the thread and we would be happy to talk you through getting set up. I suggest you give it a try. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=173897 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted April 15, 2017 Author Share Posted April 15, 2017 Thx LRRP - I'm going to be away from DCS for a few months, I'll take a look when I get back! Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocket Sized Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 I know this thread is old, but the aircraft will become more sensitive to stalling as Mach number increases. At high altitude, you have to be very gentle to keep the wings happy. At 50,000 ft and M0.8, the aircraft will begin buffeting at less than 5 degrees AoA (as opposed to 15-19 when low and slow) DCS modules are built up to a spec, not down to a schedule. In order to utilize a system to your advantage, you must know how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWC_SLAG Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 Thx LRRP - I'm going to be away from DCS for a few months, I'll take a look when I get back! Hope you are not gone, yet. Would be interested in what curves you finally came up with. Thanks, TWC_SLAG Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svend_Dellepude Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 For curves, try something between 15- 25 to start with. Anything greater just messes up your control when you have the stick in full deflection. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Win10 64, Asus Maximus VIII Formula, i5 6600K, Geforce 980 GTX Ti, 32 GB Ram, Samsung EVO SSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts