Nature of VTOL in AV-8

[crudboy12]

I am assuming that the AV-8 will have a pretty hard cap on the weight it can carry and still perform a vertical takeoff. Was it common/possible in real life for AV-8s to VTOL with a reasonable combat load? The AV-8 seems to open up some interesting possibilities for combat scenarios particularly in regards to road operation, but from fields and helipads? For that matter, can weapons be deployed in VTOL mode True Lies style? :D

 

Seems like a cool bird, and judging from the pre-alpha cockpit footage, a complex one at that. I am looking forwards to having another jet with a modern feeling cockpit to muck around in.

[Zenithic]

I am assuming that the AV-8 will have a pretty hard cap on the weight it can carry and still perform a vertical takeoff. Was it common/possible in real life for AV-8s to VTOL with a reasonable combat load? The AV-8 seems to open up some interesting possibilities for combat scenarios particularly in regards to road operation, but from fields and helipads? For that matter, can weapons be deployed in VTOL mode True Lies style? :D

 

Seems like a cool bird, and judging from the pre-alpha cockpit footage, a complex one at that. I am looking forwards to having another jet with a modern feeling cockpit to muck around in.

 

 

You're not going to be able to VTOL with any realistic combat load. You can't even VTOL with full internal tanks, nevermind external stores. Standard gameplan for the AV-8B is a STO (short take-off) with tanks and weapons. The VTOL part is used for recovery aboard the ship or back at the field, and even then, you're going to have to be lighter on fuel, outside temperature dependent.

 

Even if you could hover in a tactical situation, you're not going to be able to employ ordnance. The gun and AIM-9 have minimum airspeed employment restrictions.

 

We can use the nozzles in BFM situations for some circus tricks, but usually, once you're airborne, just another tactical jet.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Zenithic

[Los]

This is why AV8s use STOL for take off not VTOl...unless your are Arnold Schwarzenegger.

 

Los

[Eagle0110]

Or, on a mission building stand point, perhaps it is still possible for it to VTOL from fields and helipads with full weapon load but very small amount of fuel, and then air refuel just shortly after?

 

That could potentially opens up very interesting possibility if the aircraft's capability allows it :P

 

Edit: also potential challenges for the adventure-minded, such as a mission where connecting to a tanker under a certain amount of time is critically required lol

Edited April 3, 2017 by Eagle0110

[Harry.R]

Just set up a forward base on a short road, car park or temporary matting and STO out with a decent load and fuel.

[Einherjer]

VTO in combat was never used or needed, but you can start from a really short "runway" and land vertical. So the harrier is a STOVL aircraft. Vertical takeoff is for airshows.

[QuiGon]

VTO in combat was never used or needed, but you can start from a really short "runway" and land vertical. So the harrier is a STOVL aircraft. Vertical takeoff is for airshows.

 

That's not quite true ;)

 

There has been at least one case I know of where VTO has been needed in a combat situation. It was in the Falklands War when a badge of Harriers was shipped to the islands as reinforcements. They were embarked aboard the Atlantic Conveyor, a container ship by trade. To protect it, one Harrier was put on alert, armed with Sidewinders to intercept enemy air threats.

 

See also this comment from the Harrier thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3079044&postcount=738

 

The Atlantic Conveyor on its journey to the Falklands. It was sunk by two Exocet missiles before it could offload most of its load.

Edited April 3, 2017 by QuiGon

[Einherjer]

That's not quite true ;)

 

There has been at least one case I know of where VTO has been needed in a combat situation. It was in the Falklands War when a badge of Harriers was shipped to the islands as reinforcements. They were embarked aboard the Atlantic Conveyor, a container ship by trade. To protect it, one Harrier was put on alert, armed with Sidewinders to intercept enemy air threats.

 

See also this comment from the Harrier thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3079044&postcount=738

 

The Atlantic Conveyor on its journey to the Falklands. It was sunk by two Exocet missiles before it could offload most of its load.

 

 

 

Ok, but this was more an exception than a rule and it was done by the brits , the USMC had to many incidents with the AV-8A to allow something like this ;) btw, would also love to see a old SHAR and a Falkland map :)

[QuiGon]

Ok, but this was more an exception than a rule and it was done by the brits , the USMC had to many incidents with the AV-8A to allow something like this ;) btw, would also love to see a old SHAR and a Falkland map :)

 

These are not just Sea Harriers. There are both Navy Sea Harriers as well as Air Force GR.1 on board ;)

[Boris]

I agree Falklands would be a really cool scenario for DCS. Unfortunately we don't even have any fitting modules yet, so no real need for such a map.

[QuiGon]

I agree Falklands would be a really cool scenario for DCS. Unfortunately we don't even have any fitting modules yet, so no real need for such a map.

 

Most of the aircraft that have been used there are already available or in development:

- Harrier: in development

- Mirage III: in development

- Skyhawk: in deelopment

- Huey: released

- Gazelle: released

 

Just a C-130, a Super Étendard and some helicopter types are missing.

Edited April 3, 2017 by QuiGon

[Einherjer]

These are not just Sea Harriers. There are both Navy Sea Harriers as well as Air Force GR.1 on board ;)

 

 

 

Correct, but the RAF GR1 had such a ugly nose , I would definitely prefer the RN SHAR from the HMS Invincible ;)

 

Now let's wait for the NA, will be a great plane and hopefully the whole family will follow.

 

 

But back to topic, our upcoming harrier designed for STOVL operations, what we do with it is another topic.

 

Regarding the fuel , the Harrier often starts with external fuel tanks but not fully loaded, so the first action after starting is hitting the tanker and take fuel for the sortie , especially when flying CAP like in Afghanistan (thin air up there so the engine has problems to provide enough thrust for hovering or starting with full loadout)

[Vampyre]

These are not just Sea Harriers. There are both Navy Sea Harriers as well as Air Force GR.1 on board ;)

 

The jets that served in the Falklands conflict are RN Sea Harrier FRS1's and RAF Harrier GR3's. The GR3 is differentiated from the GR1 by the Ferranti LRMTS on the nose. The GR1 had a pointy nose capped off by the pitot probe like the AV-8A/C.

 

GR1

 

GR3

[QuiGon]

The jets that served in the Falklands conflict are RN Sea Harrier FRS1's and RAF Harrier GR3's. The GR3 is differentiated from the GR1 by the Ferranti LRMTS on the nose. The GR1 had a pointy nose capped off by the pitot probe like the AV-8A/C.

 

Thanks, you're right of course! :thumbup:

[ESAc_matador]

In the famous Sharky ward book says that they use the directional exhaust tubes combat to reduce turning radius.

[QuiGon]

In the famous Sharky ward book says that they use the directional exhaust tubes combat to reduce turning radius.

 

Yeah, he even said he dominated USAF F-15s in dogfight training with this technique.

[ESAc_matador]

Yeah, he even said he dominated USAF F-15s in dogfight training with this technique.

 

Exactly... you read it too :smilewink: (I did not want to put this to avoid a "discussion"... hahaha But in such book at least, they say the have really good numbers against F15, and against even agressor squadrons, I mean, they defeated them)

 

Mostly by "inviting" them to go low, of course systems and equipment were not what we have now, but it seems that the capabilities in A to A combat (if you have a radar, and know how to use the bird) can be really really good.

 

So I really hope, we get the AV8B with radar soon... i would love to have a combined squadrons. I prefer the AV8 than the F18 actually... less capable, but probably funnier!!

[SkateZilla]

You're not going to be able to VTOL with any realistic combat load. You can't even VTOL with full internal tanks, nevermind external stores. Standard gameplan for the AV-8B is a STO (short take-off) with tanks and weapons. The VTOL part is used for recovery aboard the ship or back at the field, and even then, you're going to have to be lighter on fuel, outside temperature dependent.

 

Even if you could hover in a tactical situation, you're not going to be able to employ ordnance. The gun has a 150kt minimum airspeed for firing. AIM-9 is going to have a 200kt minimum employment airspeed.

 

We can use the nozzles in BFM situations for some circus tricks, but usually, once you're airborne, just another tactical jet.

 

not to mention limited cooling time.

[Pocket Sized]

If we differentiate between what's realistically possible and what's physically possible, then yes, you can take off vertically with weapns.

 

In DCS you could do your own flight testing and figure out what the "real" max weight is (as heavy as you can get without crashing on takeoff). In real life they leave some margin to reduce stress on the airplane (not an issue in DCS!) I've flown an A-10C at a gross weight of 60,000 lbs despite the 48,000lbs MTOW.

[joey45]

Correct, but the RAF GR1 had such a ugly nose , I would definitely prefer the RN SHAR from the HMS Invincible ;)

 

As I have Hermes* & Lusty plans I also plan get The Mighty Ark and Vince in the coming weeks. :)

 

Just need a good ship builder for the 3 sisters. :smilewink:

 

*In dry dock awaiting more reference photos. :book:

[Chrinik]

I wonder how much weight will be the absolute max for a stable hover, because I am already imagining AFAC scenarios for BlueFlag, where, with a light enough load, maybe 2-4 Sidewinders/Sidearms and lower internal fuel, you can sit at treetop and lase targets for bombtrucks.

 

Time will tell if it´s feasable, I am looking forward to the jet regardless, and will enjoy the added capabilities.

[ESAc_matador]

I wonder how much weight will be the absolute max for a stable hover, because I am already imagining AFAC scenarios for BlueFlag, where, with a light enough load, maybe 2-4 Sidewinders/Sidearms and lower internal fuel, you can sit at treetop and lase targets for bombtrucks.

 

Time will tell if it´s feasable, I am looking forward to the jet regardless, and will enjoy the added capabilities.

 

Not allowed... cant be hovering more than few minutes. It is not designed to do this.

[Chrinik]

Not allowed... cant be hovering more than few minutes. It is not designed to do this.

 

Not allowed does not apply to DCS.

 

And plenty of planes in DCS weren´t designed for the things we put them through, yet, we can do it anyway, because we don´t have certain factors to take into account. Most of which are death and airplane-fatigue.

[Zeus67]

Not allowed does not apply to DCS.

 

And plenty of planes in DCS weren´t designed for the things we put them through, yet, we can do it anyway, because we don´t have certain factors to take into account. Most of which are death and airplane-fatigue.

 

We know.

We are very much aware that DCS pilots are members of the "Hold my beer, I got this." club. You guys do things that real stunt pilots won't dare, ever!

[Dehuman]

Not allowed does not apply to DCS.

 

And plenty of planes in DCS weren´t designed for the things we put them through, yet, we can do it anyway, because we don´t have certain factors to take into account. Most of which are death and airplane-fatigue.

 

Whilst this is true for many situations, this is not one of them.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3076197&postcount=698