B-17 DM

[Conroy]

Is this only a very early WIP on the B-17 DM?

 

 

All this potential of Normandy 44 will be wasted, if we'll not have a proper damage model for the flying fortress, somenthing special i mean.....

 

This is really stunning (the "potential") but without a proper DM (not a "simplified" DM)...it will not worth the scramble to intercept them.

 

[BIGNEWY]

The B-17s are still w.i.p as is the new damage models.

 

we will have to wait for ED to tell us more

[Conroy]

Thank for replay.

 

We need something really special for this ultra detailed B-17. I really hope ED understand that the B-17 "boxed" is a strategic feature of this Normandy, first of all for the immersion.

 

Really, we have never seen a so realistic B-17 formation, but without a proper DM and graphical effects......it would be wasted.

 

The lack of info from ED does not help, would be time to have an official update about the new DM, please.

[BIGNEWY]

They will share info when they are ready, usually near completion.

[Captain Orso]

IIRC somebody official, or with close ties to ED (Sith?, Mat?) said, the new DM would be introduced with the Normandy map. I'd guess, that means at the official release; not the planned pre-release at the end of this month.

[SeaW0lf]

Yeah, the B-17 deserves all the care it can get. Much of the action will be focused on shooting it down or defending it. The aircraft will play a central role in game play.

[Conroy]

Yeah, the B-17 deserves all the care it can get. Much of the action will be focused on shooting it down or defending it. The aircraft will play a central role in game play.

 

Exactly!

 

It must be the best enviroment ever seen in a WW2 flight sim, just only to be motivated to elaborate the right tactic to attack them boxed and escorted.

 

 

[antagonist]

Never forget, Old 666 got almost completely trashed by 5 20 mm shells.

[SeaW0lf]

I am not sure what's the point, because this is what I found about Old 666:

 

often coming back from missions with heavy damage.

 

On a May 5 mission over Madang, Old 666 was hit more than 60 times by anti-aircraft fire, the stabilizer was shot out and the oxygen tanks exploded, yet the aircraft landed safely and was quickly patched

 

In another occasion, when attacked by seven A6M Zeros...

 

20mm cannon shells from another Zero smashed into the cockpit and nose, wounding both Zeamer and Sarnoski. (...) The second attack wave knocked out the plane's oxygen system, forcing the bomber to dive from 25,000 feet (7,600 m) to 8,000 feet (...) Six out of nine of Old 666's crew were dead or wounded in varying degrees, their aircraft heavily damaged.

 

But the aircraft came back from all these missions.

 

The way DM looks, you can easily come back from a mission with five, six B-17 kills, which is a tally more in line with the old simulators back in the 90s, when we shot down planes like flies.

[Legioneod]

I am not sure what's the point, because this is what I found about Old 666:

 

 

 

 

 

In another occasion, when attacked by seven A6M Zeros...

 

 

 

But the aircraft came back from all these missions.

 

The way DM looks, you can easily come back from a mission with five, six B-17 kills, which is a tally more in line with the old simulators back in the 90s, when we shot down planes like flies.

 

Agreed. B-17s and B-24s were tough birds. They shouldn't be killed in one burst, they should be very tough and need to be taken on by killing the engines or crew mostly.

 

I read that German pilots would come at the bombers from the front because of there being less guns in the front of the bomber, and because it was a good way to kill the pilot/crew with all that glass and no protection.

[Firebird1955]

Hence the creation of the "G" model. Developed to deter just that tactic, the G had as many as 8 .50 guns that could point forward at any given time (actual count is 7 since Navigator had to jump between cheek guns), and with box formation, the frontal attack became a thing of the past quickly. With 13 .50 per aircraft, fortress was the perfect term for this monster. Having the privilege of being a flight crew chief on one of the 13 remaining flying versions, I can say it is truly a Flying Fortress.

[SeaW0lf]

Agreed. B-17s and B-24s were tough birds. They shouldn't be killed in one burst, they should be very tough and need to be taken on by killing the engines or crew mostly.

 

Just to update from the other thread, a good example of what you are saying.

 

On the

a Bf 110 armed with cannons sprays a thunderstorm of bullets to the wings and body of this B-17. The wings appear to be in good shape after several cannon blasts, many at point blank, and debris flying all over. Sad image as I mentioned on the other thread, but it shows how thought it was.

 

It might burst and break in very specific scenarios, but I imagine the footage that we see of bombers folding wings is mostly the result of flak, not fighters.

 

[Hueyman]

Holy cow, I'm just dreaming every night of a full fledged DCS B-17G module ...

 

Why not after all ? They can't pout so much details into an AI only thing... they obviously ahs plans for the years to come...

 

I remember each AI model seeing a huge 3D upgrade from the past ( Mi-8, Huey, F-5, F-18 eventually saw them a dedicated module all the way.

[AndytotheD]

Just to update from the other thread, a good example of what you are saying.

 

On the

a Bf 110 armed with cannons sprays a thunderstorm of bullets to the wings and body of this B-17. The wings appear to be in good shape after several cannon blasts, many at point blank, and debris flying all over. Sad image as I mentioned on the other thread, but it shows how thought it was.

 

It might burst and break in very specific scenarios, but I imagine the footage that we see of bombers folding wings is mostly the result of flak, not fighters.

 

 

By Comparison, that bomber at 4:38 is most likely going to go down and that was only a few seconds of fire.

[SeaW0lf]

By Comparison, that bomber at 4:38 is most likely going to go down and that was only a few seconds of fire.

 

She still has its wings firmly attached to her body.

 

I don't see the point, but for sure it is not really a good example to justify how the DM is looking like.

 

You can ask to have a fuel tank burst into the DM, but you sure can't ask for it to burst every time you hit the aircraft and call it a simulator. The way it looks you can shoot down as many B-17s as your ammo lasts. It reminds me of MCFS. I used to down five, six bombers in one box. Translate that to real life and no B-17 would ever come back from the other side of the Channel.

 

But are you happy with the way the DM looks? To be able to shoot down several B-17s in one sortie?

[NineLine]

Its all still WIP, especially the units from the unit pack. It will all get dialed in, and major things are happening with the damage model right now as well.

[SeaW0lf]

and major things are happening with the damage model right now as well.

 

Cool, it is good to know. I don't mind if it comes half-developed during the beta, since it is a beta and we can't expect a fully developed product. Just to fly on the map will be fun. But it would be nice to see a mature DM for all modules when the map is officially released.

[mx22]

She still has its wings firmly attached to her body.

 

I used to down five, six bombers in one box. Translate that to real life and no B-17 would ever come back from the other side of the Channel.

 

 

Disregarding the state of the damage model in DCS (which I agree needs to be improved and hopefully is coming soon), the number of bombers you can shoot down in a sortie in DCS will never correlate to what happened in real life. You are sitting in your chair and flying an abstract plane against abstract enemy; you are not at 20k feet fighting cold and lack of oxygen and there is no fear of dying from even a single stray bullet. Your attacks will be longer, from closer distance and more then likely you will place your plane in a position that it real life would be considered extremely bold and/or downright suicidal.

[SeaW0lf]

Disregarding the state of the damage model in DCS (which I agree needs to be improved and hopefully is coming soon), the number of bombers you can shoot down in a sortie in DCS will never correlate to what happened in real life. You are sitting in your chair and flying an abstract plane against abstract enemy; you are not at 20k feet fighting cold and lack of oxygen and there is no fear of dying from even a single stray bullet. Your attacks will be longer, from closer distance and more then likely you will place your plane in a position that it real life would be considered extremely bold and/or downright suicidal.

 

I agree in part. You can always exploit the weakness of a DM, but it needs to have some balance. Hence why you could shoot down several bombers in one sortie back in the 90s. These things were not taken into account. It was point-and-shoot games.

 

In today standards you could achieve a really nice balance. You need a strong multiplayer base (everyday people testing the game-play of it) and willingness to iron things out. The result could be very satisfying, and I say it from personal experience.

[Sokol1_br]

The way it looks you can shoot down as many B-17s as your ammo lasts. It reminds me of MCFS. I used to down five, six bombers in one box. Translate that to real life and no B-17 would ever come back from the other side of the Channel.

 

Some Germans pilots are able to shoot down 3 or 4 heavy, e.g. Egon Mayer bomber kills (apparently) in one flight:

 

78 6.9.1943 12:10 B-17 Stab/JG 2 3km W Mailly-le-Camp

79 6.9.1943 12:17 B-17 Stab/JG 2 6km W Troyes

80 6.9.1943 12:29 B-17 Stab/JG 2 Lens

 

95 7.1.1944 13:05 B-24 Stab/JG 2 NE Orléans

96 7.1.1944 13:06 B-24 Stab/JG 2 NE Orléans

97 7.1.1944 13:15 B-24 Stab/JG 2 Bouville

98 7.1.1944 13:18 B-17 Stab/JG 2 Les Buissons

 

Hugo Frey

 

29 6.3.1944 15:05 B-17 7./JG 11 Assen-Alkmaar, B-17G (42-31125) “Suzy Sagtitz” of 388 BG USAAF flown by 1st Lt M Gwens, crash-landed near Oud Schoonebeck, 9 bailed out, POW, 1 killed

30 6.3.1944 15:08 B-17 7./JG 11 Assen-Alkmaar

31 6.3.1944 15:10 B-17 7./JG 11 Assen-Alkmaar

32 6.3.1944 15:15 B-17 7./JG 11 Assen-Alkmaar

 

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mayer.html

Edited May 28, 2017 by Sokol1_br

[NineLine]

Cool, it is good to know. I don't mind if it comes half-developed during the beta, since it is a beta and we can't expect a fully developed product. Just to fly on the map will be fun. But it would be nice to see a mature DM for all modules when the map is officially released.

 

I hope so too, but whatever it takes to make a great DM, I am willing to wait for it.

[Hub]

Slightly related, Do the b-17 formations shoot back? I set up a few and flew into them . THey didn't shoot back and broke formation .

 

Guessing it's in the options and actions part if setting things up?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Silver_Dragon]

B-17F defensive fire not implemented actually (3D model has implemented fire and turret animations).

[Hub]

Pretty sure DCS has b17g modeled, and I am not sure what your saying with 3D model? I apologize for being slow on the uptake. Sounds like a no

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Solty]

Just to update from the other thread, a good example of what you are saying.

 

On the

a Bf 110 armed with cannons sprays a thunderstorm of bullets to the wings and body of this B-17. The wings appear to be in good shape after several cannon blasts, many at point blank, and debris flying all over. Sad image as I mentioned on the other thread, but it shows how thought it was.

 

It might burst and break in very specific scenarios, but I imagine the footage that we see of bombers folding wings is mostly the result of flak, not fighters.

 

 

B17 was one of the toughest bombers of the war. If German He111 were to go without escort against Luftwaffe in 1944, their losses would probably be around 70-80%.

 

The video u posted and many others, together with countless photos, are testament to what the B17 would go through and still come back home.

 

Shooting them down with a single short burst to the wing with Mg151/20 is highly unlikely.

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Solty