A-10 any good for dogfight?

[Noface]

:helpsmilie:I know that the A-10 is designed to ground attacks but is it any good at defending itself during an unexpected atack by another plane?

I started playing dcs 2 weeks ago and learned how to flight with the albatros

Now I am using the f5e. Should I change to the a-10?:helpsmilie:

[BlazingTrigger]

The A-10 has self defence capability but it's not designed as an air to air dogfighter, it's a gun with wings and engines added as an afterthought. So I'd recommend getting flaming cliffs if you wish to dogfight.

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[baltic_dragon]

Or Mirage 2000C.

Having said that my friend was able to shoot down two Mig-29s in a row using A-10s sidewinders :)

[WinterH]

If you consider A-10C, you shouldn't consider it for any air combat capability, but rather for the best CAS capabilities in DCS.

 

However, addressing your question, the A-10 can turn surprisingly good when it's light, but not for long, as (at least in the flight model we have) it hates when angle of attack increase, and its engine power is rather anemic so sustaining maneuvreability or doing anything in vertical plane are not too likely to happen.

 

However, like I've said, A-10's strong suit, is its peerless close air support capability. You can slowly circle above and leasurely watch the battle field with targeting pod, and pick off anything with great accuracy using laser or GPS guided bombs, mavericks, and whole host of other air to ground ordnance, and last but not least, the famous GAU-8.

[frodrigues2016]

:helpsmilie:I know that the A-10 is designed to ground attacks but is it any good at defending itself during an unexpected atack by another plane?

I started playing dcs 2 weeks ago and learned how to flight with the albatros

Now I am using the f5e. Should I change to the a-10?:helpsmilie:

The A-10 in war flies so low that other planes cant shoot at him...not even shoulder ground to air missiles......

[galevsky06]

How to dogfight with the A-10C:

 

1. Jettison weapons, select A/A mode

2. Dive to the ground then escape with chaff/flares and hard turns as required. If bandit overshoot you, launch your Aim-9.

 

If you are looking for some minimum dogfighting capabilities, you will pick-up the Warthog as last option :bye_3:

[Vitormouraa]

The A-10 is actually quite good at dogfighting at low altitudes and speeds.

 

As our friend said above, jettison all the A/G weapons possible that don't have any use in a dogfight. Try to fight the enemy aircraft at low altitudes, the TF-34 turbofan engine works with airflow (around 85% of the total thrust comes from the fan - LPC), so at low altitudes the air density is higher, which results the engine making more thrust, as you climb, the aircraft will lose its performance so it's a good idea to keep the fight under 14,000ft I would say.

 

Of course you wouldn't dogfight with weapons aboard or with too much fuel. The A-10 loses quite a lot of energy, but at speeds below or above 200 KIAS, the A-10 has a chance to fight any aircraft module in DCS right now. Supposing that the enemy aircraft keeps trying to turn, i.e not using its potential energy to climb up and then dive for the kill. Also avoid vertical maneuvers.

[Noface]

Thank you all for your replies. Now I'm clarified

Edited July 28, 2017 by Noface

[Echo38]

No. I probably have more experience dogfighting in the A-10 than anyone else in the community. Before I got the P-51D module, I only had the A-10C, and I'm exclusively interested in dogfighting, not air-to-ground. After many duels against the same partner, under various conditions, I concluded that the A-10C was no match for the P-51D. After I got the P-51D, I proved that hypothesis correct by effortlessly downing him P-51 versus P-51 (at the time, he was a much less experienced VFP than me). In my A-10 versus his P-51, I only had a chance when he seriously screwed up, or when I took ~15% fuel and he took 100%.

 

That said, if you do manage to get guns on target ... GG

("when he seriously screwed up")

[Noface]

Thanks Echo38

[Kev2go]

No. I probably have more experience dogfighting in the A-10 than anyone else in the community. Before I got the P-51D module, I only had the A-10C, and I'm exclusively interested in dogfighting, not air-to-ground. After many duels against the same partner, under various conditions, I concluded that the A-10C was no match for the P-51D. After I got the P-51D, I proved that hypothesis correct by effortlessly downing him P-51 versus P-51 (at the time, he was a much less experienced VFP than me). In my A-10 versus his P-51, I only had a chance when he seriously screwed up, or when I took ~15% fuel and he took 100%.

 

That said, if you do manage to get guns on target ... GG

("when he seriously screwed up")

 

an A10 on clean wing loading can outrun a P51 at low altitudes, plus it got sidewinders. not a ideal dogfighter, and as other have said I highly recommend to simply use it in its intended role ( ground attack) but it can beat a P51 with 60% or less fuel. yosing your superior energy to your advantage choose to run or chase it down ( assuming hes not flying high)

Ive CHased down a P51 flying back to base at around 2000m. alt.

 

ive managed gotten good tones with the aim9m, and shot em down with those even though the P51 does not have as big a heat sig as jets.

 

At the end of the day it comes down to the skill of the Pilot.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Kev2go

[Oscar Juliet]

If you're a skilled pilot who knows the a10c through and through you can hold your own no issue. I have videos of shooting down air threats. You can only hold your own for so long no matter how good you are. Eventually you can and will be shot down. Though one air threat here or there shouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately most A10c pilots I've seen online are not that great at evasion or air to air. So they panic and get shot down right away. Or they are not situational aware of what is going on and are surprised by an attack by a good fighter pilot.

[Echo38]

an A10 on clean wing loading can outrun a P51 at low altitudes

 

Yes. However, the question was about dogfighting, not about disengaging.

: )

 

it can beat a P51 with 60% or less fuel

 

Not in a mirror duel dogfight. I was able to quickly defeat him A-10 versus A-10 and P-51 versus P-51, but I couldn't win A-10 versus P-51 unless there was a massive fuel discrepancy in my A-10's favor. In a mirror duel with two good pilots, the A-10 with 60% fuel cannot win the dogfight, even if the P-51 is at 100% fuel (even with that CoG weirdness from the rear tank being filled).

 

At the end of the day it comes down to the skill of the Pilot.

 

... Except when the pilots are sufficiently close in skill. At a certain point, other factors (such as the aircraft's overall capabilities, and the fuel masses) begin to be more important to the outcome of a dogfight.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Echo38

[Kev2go]

Yes. However, the question was about dogfighting, not about disengaging.

: )

 

 

 

Not in a mirror duel dogfight. I was able to quickly defeat him A-10 versus A-10 and P-51 versus P-51, but I couldn't win A-10 versus P-51 unless there was a massive fuel discrepancy in my A-10's favor. In a mirror duel with two good pilots, the A-10 with 60% fuel cannot win the dogfight, even if the P-51 is at 100% fuel (even with that CoG weirdness from the rear tank being filled).

 

 

 

... Except when the pilots are sufficiently close in skill. At a certain point, other factors (such as the aircraft's overall capabilities, and the fuel masses) begin to be more important to the outcome of a dogfight.

 

using speed to advantage is not disengaging. Dogfighting goes beyond turning in circles and making fancy maneuvers.

 

and I tried 60% fuel vs 100% fuel loaded p51, ITs not that hard to beat. especially if uve got sidewinders.

 

TO me F86 and Mig15 are far more dangerous opponents than a p51 because they can out energy you by a significant margin at all altitudes.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Kev2go

[Noface]

Thank you all for the answers

[craig_sez]

Back in the nam days the sandys (A1 sky raider)were not ment as dog fighters but easily out maneuvered the migs in turns and did shoot some down..

The A1 was the a10 of days gone by..

 

Here is a sample of the plane before the a10....Now we have the a10 which can do more!!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl9CNfVgNMA&t=2191s

[escaner]

Out of curiosity, the A-10 has two air to air confirmed kills, both with the GAU-8: Bo 105 and Mi-8

Edited July 29, 2017 by escaner

[Echo38]

using speed to advantage is not disengaging.

 

Superior speed cannot help you shoot down an aircraft that is more maneuverable than you and actively out-maneuvering you with said superior maneuverability. The only way you can use superior speed as an advantage during a dogfight is by running away.

 

and I tried 60% fuel vs 100% fuel loaded p51, ITs not that hard to beat. especially if uve got sidewinders.

 

The AI P-51 is a pretty easy opponent. A good human VFP can quickly take down the AI, even when beginning at a disadvantage. You must understand that I'm talking about a situation between two pilots of similar skill, not a human stomping a noober or AI. Hence my use of the term "mirror." Means that the aircraft is the only significant difference between the two sides at the beginning of the fight. A classic duel, if you will.

 

As for Sidewinders, sure, if you fire a Sidewinder before the two of you merge, that's an easy kill, but that isn't a dogfight, now, is it? That's just a head-on pass with superior weaponry. Once the merge occurs, once you're no longer flying toward each other to initiate a dogfight, the Sidewinders are just dead weight, worse than nothing, because you'll never get the chance to use them again. The A-10 doesn't have off-boresight locking capability and, if you've got 60% fuel (or even 40%), a P-51 pilot worth his avgas won't let you get anywhere near a firing solution.

 

So, to restate as clearly as I can, in an actual "mirror duel" dogfight (i.e. all things equal other than the aircraft & fuel states), an A-10C with 60% fuel cannot outmaneuver a P-51D at any fuel state, unless the P-51 pilot lets you. No matter how well you maneuver, the P-51 can easily outmaneuver you. If you still disbelieve me, all you have to do to understand the simple truth of the matter is to find a pilot who is similar in skill to you, and have a few mirror duels: some A-10 vs. A-10, some P-51 vs. P-51, and some A-10 vs. P-51, switching out which pilot flies which between duels. You will immediately come to the same conclusion that I did. There's no room for debate.

 

Now, if the entirety of your argument boils down to something like, "But the A-10 can launch a Sidewinder from outside of gun range" (and I'm starting to suspect that it does), then yeah, the A-10 has a winning option in a "dogfight" with a P-51. But I don't think that's what the guy was originally asking. His question was about the ability to outmaneuver, not to lob a fire-and-forget from long range than fly away in slow motion. Particularly the phrase "defending itself during an unexpected attack by another plane" implies that it's already short range and off-boresight, at which point no decent opponent is going to let you get out of gun range to setup a HO. The Brownings make short work of the A-10's engines, so you'll never make it out of gun range if you get bounced. Gotta maneuver, and the A-10 just doesn't maneuver as well as the P-51, in either the vertical or horizontal plane. Not nearly.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Echo38

[escaner]

Superior speed cannot help you shoot down an aircraft that is more maneuverable than you and actively out-maneuvering you with said superior maneuverability. The only way you can use superior speed as an advantage during a dogfight is by running away.

 

You just ruined 100 years of fighter evolution and tactics. :music_whistling:

[Echo38]

You just ruined 100 years of fighter evolution and tactics.

 

Don't be ridiculous. I never said that speed was unimportant, or less important than maneuverability. Speed is life. But maneuverability, not speed, is what makes a kill during a dogfight. This is why fighter designers, even while they usually prioritize speed, still place great emphasis on maneuverability. A fighter has to be fast to survive, but still needs to be maneuverable. Even though, in the modern era, most kills occur BVR, once a dogfight does occur, maneuverability becomes more important than speed, until it's time to disengage.

[Kev2go]

Superior speed cannot help you shoot down an aircraft that is more maneuverable than you and actively out-maneuvering you with said superior maneuverability. The only way you can use superior speed as an advantage during a dogfight is by running away.

 

 

 

The AI P-51 is a pretty easy opponent. A good human VFP can quickly take down the AI, even when beginning at a disadvantage. You must understand that I'm talking about a situation between two pilots of similar skill, not a human stomping a noober or AI. Hence my use of the term "mirror." Means that the aircraft is the only significant difference between the two sides at the beginning of the fight. A classic duel, if you will.

 

As for Sidewinders, sure, if you fire a Sidewinder before the two of you merge, that's an easy kill, but that isn't a dogfight, now, is it? That's just a head-on pass with superior weaponry. Once the merge occurs, once you're no longer flying toward each other to initiate a dogfight, the Sidewinders are just dead weight, worse than nothing, because you'll never get the chance to use them again. The A-10 doesn't have off-boresight locking capability and, if you've got 60% fuel (or even 40%), a P-51 pilot worth his avgas won't let you get anywhere near a firing solution.

 

So, to restate as clearly as I can, in an actual "mirror duel" dogfight (i.e. all things equal other than the aircraft & fuel states), an A-10C with 60% fuel cannot outmaneuver a P-51D at any fuel state, unless the P-51 pilot lets you. No matter how well you maneuver, the P-51 can easily outmaneuver you. If you still disbelieve me, all you have to do to understand the simple truth of the matter is to find a pilot who is similar in skill to you, and have a few mirror duels: some A-10 vs. A-10, some P-51 vs. P-51, and some A-10 vs. P-51, switching out which pilot flies which between duels. You will immediately come to the same conclusion that I did. There's no room for debate.

 

Now, if the entirety of your argument boils down to something like, "But the A-10 can launch a Sidewinder from outside of gun range" (and I'm starting to suspect that it does), then yeah, the A-10 has a winning option in a "dogfight" with a P-51. But I don't think that's what the guy was originally asking. His question was about the ability to outmaneuver, not to lob a fire-and-forget from long range than fly away in slow motion. Particularly the phrase "defending itself during an unexpected attack by another plane" implies that it's already short range and off-boresight, at which point no decent opponent is going to let you get out of gun range to setup a HO. The Brownings make short work of the A-10's engines, so you'll never make it out of gun range if you get bounced. Gotta maneuver, and the A-10 just doesn't maneuver as well as the P-51, in either the vertical or horizontal plane. Not nearly.

 

but then i dont see the point because unless for shits and giggles matchup, the A10C would never face a P51 due to being birds of entirely different eras.. and the Aim9M can manage to score a maneuver kill once engaged. This isnt a legacy tailchaser missile. IF the Player wants to dogfight modern stuff, no A10 is not ideal ( i think no one is disputing this, and this has already been answered by other users here), its manuvers and sidewinders are defensive, and realistically its offensive a2a mission would only be really used perhaps against helicopters. SO yes a M2000C or any FC3 will be far better choice for " dogfghting aircraft from the modern era.

 

and yes it has some limited off bore sight capability. i suggest you review the Training tutorials.

 

 

 

 

 

 

you can lock targets with a lightening 2 TGP in a2a mode, and this will provide an off boresight firing solution.

 

A10c also has a a2a mode for the gun pipper to sort of help with leading. you need far less Gau8 shots to shoot down a P51, and the gau8 even in a short bursts will simply obliterate the p51 as if it were an explosion from a missile.

 

 

 

 

AND yes you do have a chance can make it out of gun range when bounced b a p51, if you emergency jettison ( this will still however leave sidewinders and TGP and the ECM pod if you have one equipped). the A10C can dive to escape if you are at least at a mid level altitudes and even though its not meant for high speed maneuvers. the p51 will not be able to pull manuvers at 750 km/h. itl snap its elevators let alone hope to pull any maneuvers at too fast a dive.

 

at lower altitudes the a10c can outrun the P51. and or chase it down. ive done it.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Kev2go

[escaner]

Don't be ridiculous. I never said that speed was unimportant, or less important than maneuverability. Speed is life. But maneuverability, not speed, is what makes a kill during a dogfight. This is why fighter designers, even while they usually prioritize speed, still place great emphasis on maneuverability. A fighter has to be fast to survive, but still needs to be maneuverable. Even though, in the modern era, most kills occur BVR, once a dogfight does occur, maneuverability becomes more important than speed, until it's time to disengage.

 

I am not being "ridiculous". You can argue all you want, I will not do it because the 1 vs 1 air combat tactics are already there, studied, demonstrated, accepted, taught and applied everyday by air forces.

 

If you are interested on what the humankind has come up regarding this matter, you would be good to read about Boyd, Energy-Maneuverability Theory or get a tactics book like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599

[Xavven]

Well, if anything this thread has me interested in setting up a few dogfights against a P-51D to see if I can force a two-circle fight, and cause the second merge to be head on. I'm off to work but I'll try it this evening. I'm also curious to see if the A-10C can win a flat scissors fight against a P-51D or a 4th gen fighter, but I also think it's unlikely a decent F-15C or SU-27 virtual pilot would allow themselves to get into a scissor.

[Echo38]

You can argue all you want, I will not do it because the 1 vs 1 air combat tactics are already there, studied, demonstrated, accepted, taught and applied everyday by air forces.

 

If you are interested on what the humankind has come up regarding this matter, you would be good to read about Boyd, Energy-Maneuverability Theory or get a tactics book like this:

 

You're straw-manning. That means you're arguing against a fictional argument that I never made, which you're falsely assuming that I believe. Energy fighting is my favored dogfighting style, and has been for thousands of virtual combat hours. If you're genuinely interested (doubtful), as opposed to trolling (likely), here's a bit I wrote, which should demonstrate that I do understand the point of speed in air combat: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2704103&postcount=20

 

and the Aim9M can manage to score a maneuver kill once engaged.

 

Again, the A-10C does not have off-boresight tracking capability. Once the A-10 and P-51 merge, the A-10 cannot (other than by fully disengaging in order to setup a new HO) get the P-51 anywhere near its front 90 degrees, much less in the Sidewinder lock cone. Look, I don't see much point in wasting more time arguing with you. As far as I can tell, you're being intentionally ignorant for the sake of contrarian argumentation; I don't appreciate that. You can believe what you like, I suppose; it's clear that you have no interest in how the two really compare in a dogfight. Anyone with both modules can quickly do a few tests against a human opponent of similar skill, at which point it will become obvious that I know well how the two compare as dogfighters. Good day.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Echo38

[Xavven]

Alright! Well I truly believe in testing stuff out for yourself instead of arguing around conjecture. I did some flight testing tonight.

 

Match 1: F-15C (me) vs. P-51D (Excellent AI) WINNER: F-15C

No surprise here. It was very easy to dispatch the P-51D withholding firing until after the merge. I had so many options, including: blowthrough and turn to a second head-on merge for missile engagement, OR; keep speed at 650 knots and climb at the merge, then half-loop and engage from above, OR; classic rope-a-dope, OR; just make all turns in the mostly-vertical plane. I had the least success with nose-level turns at corner speed, as the P-51D seemed to keep up in turn rate, and it definitely has a tighter turning circle. This is expected in a jet vs. prop fight, so I did what jets do best and used the vertical (as the F-15C excels at) which results in victory in 1 or 2 turns max.

 

Match 2: A-10C (me) vs. P-51D (Excellent AI) WINNER: P-51D

The A-10C can't match the turn rate of the P-51D when the A-10C is loaded 100% fuel. Even if I use a slightly nose-down turn when the P-51D goes for a vertical turn, the P-51D beats me in both turn radius (expected) AND turn rate (unexpected for a vertical turn vs. nose down level turn). If I load the A-10C with 20% fuel then I do a bit better on the first turn, but by the third merge the P-51D has gained a 20 degree advantage on me and downs me in a head-on guns pass. I had a glimmer of hope using a vertical turn at the first merge if I had 20% fuel, but it exhausted my energy and I was dead on the second merge. It also loses in a flat scissors with 20% fuel -- we ended up in flat scissors with me defensive (but good on energy) but I couldn't force better overshoots and he got in sync.

 

I did, however, cause a hilarious mid-air collision when the P-51D got too close and I popped speed brakes, cut throttle, and climbed in an attempt to force a 3/9 overshoot. He did overshoot-- through my fuselage!

 

My conclusion is the the A-10C can't win by forcing a second head-on merge in a two-circle fight, loses at scissors, and loses too much energy in the vertical to survive a third merge.

 

At the end of my testing, I respawned in another A-10C and blasted the P-51D with a sidewinder head-on at the first merge. It's "cheating" but I had to show him who's boss in a no-holds-barred fight :P

Edited August 2, 2017 by Xavven