NAVAIDs as units

[Northstar98]

Hi everyone,

Would it be possible to have NAVAIDS be unit that can be placed directly into the mission editor? Focusing on NAVAIDs that are portable IRL, but I'd extend it to NDBs, VORs, ILS', marker beacons, airfield beacons (if we get them) etc.

This would make sense as some of the NAVAIDS that we have at present actually have mobile forms. It would also simplify the creation of RSBN/ARK locations for the MiG-21bis and TILS locations for the AJS 37 Viggen.

Once the unit/object is placed in the mission editor, the user should have the ability to define a frequency/channel and power (though if we're going on a certain system, the power should default to the real system's value) etc, in the same fashion as select frequency that we have currently. For ILS/PRMG/TILS it might also be useful to specify a glideslope angle within a certain range.

It would probably be good to have a checking system to ensure that a selected frequency/channel etc isn't already taken by something else. This could even extend to radio communications checking system. The checker shouldn't prevent you from having duplicate frequencies/channels, but should warn you.

 

Examples of what I'm talking about:

TACAN (unsure exactly what this one is):

(EDIT: the 2nd system has been implemented in DCS (TTS 3030)).

RSBN-4N (this exact thing is already present in DCS, but is a static object in predefined locations, and only corresponds to the L-39's RSBN system):

PRMG-5 Glideslope Antenna (GRM-5):

PGRM-5 Localiser Antenna (KRM-5):

 

As for TILS according to at least the Viggen manual (pg. 139) the TILS system it uses "can be mounted on a mobile chassis enabling it to be placed on satellite airstrips".

This system shouldn't necessarily replace the current, permanent, predefined navigational aids - if they are in their correct permanent real-world positions, which should already be the case (but they should be able to be turned off/removed). I just think it would be a good idea for quickly defining new locations for them, which might be useful for making improvised airbases, and especially for NAVAIDS that are transportable IRL (such as RSBN + PRMG).

For the MiG-21bis, you can adjust the channels in a .lua; it isn't the most user-friendly process in the world, but it would be better to have this done via the mission editor and to unify the MiG-21bis' system with the L-39s.

Preferably, it should be possible for these to be able to be transported (which might be useful in a dynamic, persistent campaign), probably via an advanced waypoint action. Obviously it should only be available as a NAVAID if it's stationary and deployed.

Also and credit to MikeMikeJuliet for the suggestion to have NAVAIDs destructible (if they aren't already).

Quote

I mean... just like any unit with a radar you can destroy it... being able to do the same to Navaids would create new mission possibilities. For safety, such a feature should be an option for servers - so those who want permanent Navaids can have them invulnerable.

 

What do you think?

Edited March 29, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting, updated

[Pikey]

+1, not sure how much effort it would take ED, but it seems a shame we can get mobile radios like ADF functioning and not some others.

[rogonaut]

very cool idea! +1

[gospadin]

Would be sweet, but as was stated, requires additional support in the game engine.

 

This would (theoretically) also enable TACAN navigation to US carriers.

[Northstar98]

+1, not sure how much effort it would take ED, but it seems a shame we can get mobile radios like ADF functioning and not some others.

 

Obviously I have to be fair and say this is probably low priority, especially with all the features listed such as having deployed/stowed/transport/active/inactive states, plus obviously the 3D work for not only for new objects but for animating them as well to facilitate their state and what have you yada yada yade blah blah blah.

 

Of course the transportable TACAN, TILS and the JPALS system will have to be completely new models, the RSBN stations will have to have work done to them to keep them up to standard and to facilitate it being set-up etc. However, the relevant airfield equipment already present in the 1.5 Caucuses map is already vehicle/trailer based, and to my untrained eyes looks like they can all be readily transported, deployed and vice versa - I'm looking at you RSP-7.

 

Adding to that the relevant airfield equipment also is one of, if not the best modelled ground equipment in the game, outclassing most other units, even combat ones and sometimes by far. Just compare the PAR of the RSP-7 system we have, which I think is based upon the ZIL-131 (contrary to what the encyclopedia says) now compare that to other, more prevalent vehicles based on the ZIL-131 such as the SKP-11 or the ZIL-131 KUNG or the APA-80 and look at the difference in quality, the RSP-7 PAR is miles ahead. Then look at the DRL-7 RADAR accompanying the PAR, it is modelled to near perfection, it's details are very sharp and that sharpness fails to wane even when the camera is right up close, the same can be said for the P-37 RADAR; now compare this to the updated AN/MPQ-50 RADAR, it's details are already markedly worse, especially the hexagonal mesh that makes up most of the parabolic antenna even when the camera is comparatively further away. Now don't get me wrong the AN/MPQ-50 we had before was awful, so the update is excellent, but it's still below standard to less prevalent RADARs that feature at airbases that don't seem to actually do anything.

 

Would be sweet, but as was stated, requires additional support in the game engine.

 

This would (theoretically) also enable TACAN navigation to US carriers.

 

Oh yes, especially for having them be able to be deployed and what have you. I believe and correct me if I'm wrong TACAN in some form also is present on refuelling tankers, I believe US carriers also use JPALS.

[Frederf]

Bearing + range tankers are already in. Applying TACAN to another moving object: vehicle, ship should be similar.

[SUNTSAG]

I have already provided the ability to place VOR stations and Tacan units in game with this mod if you are interested https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=189105

 

You can assign frequencies to them but please bare in mind this will only work in single player environments until ED fixes the ability for more than the host to be able to hear and receive radio signals from ground units in MP. Hope this helps.....Cheers.

Edited September 15, 2017 by SUNTSAG

[gospadin]

Bearing + range tankers are already in. Applying TACAN to another moving object: vehicle, ship should be similar.

 

My point is that if you look through the lua, the code for handling the Y-TACAN channels right now is a bit special-cased, and not all systems are aware of it.

 

 

I have already provided the ability to place VOR stations and Tacan units in game with this mod if you are interested https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=189105

 

You can assign frequencies to them but please bare in mind this will only work in single player environments until ED fixes the ability for more than the host to be able to hear and receive radio signals from ground units in MP. Hope this helps.....Cheers.

 

Yup, I'm aware of your mod, though having them on actual VOR/TACAN/DME frequencies would be what is actually being asked for.

[Northstar98]

Getting NAVAIDs as actual units is just only one part of the story. It's also a matter of having unit states to allow units to have active/inactive/deployed(set-up)/stowed/transportable states so they can become active/in-active as the mission progresses.

 

Another part of the story in particular is RSBN which at the moment isn't consistent between the aircraft that uses it - the MiG-21Bis and the L-39C. This is because the MiG-21Bis AFAIK uses an independent RSBN system to the L-39C which explains the deviations between them, the MiG-21Bis has more RSBN stations to choose from and has different channels to the L-39C. What we need to see, in my view, is firstly the ability to place down an RSBN station, that is visible on the map (see OP) then we need to be able to define the frequency/channel for it (what would be great here that applies to comms is to have a checker system that will warn, and where applicable inhibit the user from entering a frequency or channel that is already in use), then for aircraft we need a complete and comprehensive list of radio presets for both communication and navigation radios where we can designate frequencies for channels and presets (at the moment, due to in-game limitations the Viggen can't access all of it's possible presets and they aren't configurable, see pg. 197 of it's manual).

 

Then what we need is comprehensive assets for each individual aircraft module, instead of 3rd parties having to make independent systems or alternatively, better implement these navigation cooperatively with ED where possible so we have maximum control over our missions.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Northstar98

[Frederf]

I'm unaware of the exact nature of the moving TACAN coding.

 

The MiG-21's ARC and RSBN stations are hard coded positions in a file local to the module's directory and are completely independent from the beacons on the map.

 

Agreed that the 10 or so radio navigation types need a 1st party interface module to which the 3rd party developers integrate to. The module specifies a frequency and the API returns the info, black box-style.

[gospadin]

Agreed that the 10 or so radio navigation types need a 1st party interface module to which the 3rd party developers integrate to. The module specifies a frequency and the API returns the info, black box-style.

 

My guess is that is what already exists, but that the MiG-21 chose not to use it because they didn't want to limit navigation capabilities outside of Russia.

 

--gos

[MikeMikeJuliet]

What if we made radio-navigation beacons destroyable?

 

 

I mean... just like any unit with a radar you can destroy it... being able to do the same to Navaids would create new mission possibilities. For safety, such a feature should be an option for servers - so those who want permanent Navaids can have them invulnerable.

 

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

[Northstar98]

What if we made radio-navigation beacons destroyable?

 

 

I mean... just like any unit with a radar you can destroy it... being able to do the same to Navaids would create new mission possibilities. For safety, such a feature should be an option for servers - so those who want permanent Navaids can have them invulnerable.

 

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

 

That's a superb idea MikeMikeJuliet!

Edited September 17, 2017 by Northstar98

[SUNTSAG]

What if we made radio-navigation beacons destroyable?

 

 

I mean... just like any unit with a radar you can destroy it... being able to do the same to Navaids would create new mission possibilities. For safety, such a feature should be an option for servers - so those who want permanent Navaids can have them invulnerable.

 

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

 

As I understand it and having tried it......the current NAVAIDs in sim are destructible. Just a quick heads up if people were not aware of this :thumbup:

[MikeMikeJuliet]

As I understand it and having tried it......the current NAVAIDs in sim are destructible. Just a quick heads up if people were not aware of this :thumbup:

 

Oh, nice, I was unaware of that! No mission I've ever flown has utilized that...

[dolfo]

Wondering if this is a thing yet?

[Northstar98]

Nothing so far, we have standard static models for TACAN, VOR, RSBN and NDB/MKR (I'm talking about the Caucasus map here) but these are all hard coded positions, all of them have a map static object relating correlating to real world antennae although generalised.

 

Like I said in my OP having these unified that every module where applicable can use (as at the moment Leatherneck/Heatblur/Magnitude 3 have their own independent ARK and RSBN navigation as well as PRMG for the MiG-21Bis and TILS for the AJS-37 which are all independent from other base DCS NAVAIDS (which is why there are different RSBN stations for the MiG-21Bis and the L-39C/ZA (RSBN was added to the base NAVAIDs for ED's L-39C/ZA but the LNS/M3 system is separate to this, resulting in the discrepancy). Also TILS stations are independent and separate from normal ILS on DCS and they're exclusively available to the Viggen and they have no 3D object/map object (as far as I can tell) of the physical transmitter.

 

What we need is a collection of static and transportable NAVAIDS that each module just pulls into - meaning there is consistency and independent NAVAIDs don't have be developed module specific. What I'd personally like as well are a collection of NAVAIDS that are not only placeable static objects but ground vehicles/units (where applicable) the latter being able to be transported and deployed/shut-down mid-mission (RSBN already exists IRL as a transportable system, there are vehicle mounted and tripod mounted TACAN, I'm fairly sure there are mobile versions of ILS too (in the AJS-37 manual it states that the TILS transmitter is transportable and the PRMG landing system is also mobile). I'm sure things like NDBs could also be made transportable but I'll check IRL first, certainly a quasi NDB transmitter can be already made with DCS using ADF present in many DCS aircraft). For this we'd also need to have the ability to place them in the ME, then be able to select frequencies/channels, transmission power, identifiers, sounds and other parameters (failures) etc.

 

One thing I also noticed that in the current Caucasus map there are no ILS antennae, glideslope or localisers, even at airports that should have them (Batumi has a GP antenna and a localiser that are both clearly visible in google earth (even some closeup photos!).

 

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/25439750?

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/25440957?

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/25440013? (ILS GP antenna is on the right side of the image)

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/110539295? (ILS GP antenna to the right of the runway)

 

At Runway 31 at Batumi, at the end of the runway there is also an ILS localiser antenna facing in the direction of RWY 13

 

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/25095852?

 

There is also an RSDN-20 (ALPHA) transmitter (not sure what can use it though, not a clue about RSDN) ~50km brg ~014 of Krymsk nr. Poltavskaya (45° 24′ 12″ N, 38° 9′ 29″ E https://www.google.com/maps/place/45%C2%B024'12.0%22N+38%C2%B009'29.0%22E/) even if it can't be used it's a prominent landmark

EDIT I've found where it should be in DCS, unsurprisingly it isn't there as it's in the super low detailed portion of the map, not even the nearby Poltavskaya is modelled, the closest modelled area is Protichka, ~7.3km WSW of the transmitter). EDIT, just did some digging, the ALPHA transmitter is VLF - probably for submarines

 

All of the above is clearly visible from Google Earth

Edited October 29, 2017 by Northstar98

[Bananabrai]

Boost for this topic in terms of ILS, TILS, RSBN, etc!