Another F-117 thread (sorry!)

[Airj247]

Yes, I'm probably insane for suggesting the aircraft. But come on, like seriously who wouldn't want to own this plane as a module? Of course people have been for and against the aircraft like any other aircraft when being considered for DCS.

 

Some arguments for:

 

• It's the bloody F-117A Nighthawk!
  
• It is "stealthy" (in a way)
  
• New Feature for DCS (like multicrew, swept wings, A2G radar, VSTOL, and probably more)
  
• It's the bloody F-117A Nighthawk!
  
• Look at that cockpit!
  
• Most of the aircraft was built with already made parts, it used non afterburning F/A-18A engines (from what I read that could be false.)
  
• It isn't invincible, the "stealth is good against high frequency radars but not low. One was shot down and another was damaged badly.
  
• It was kept secret for 7 years
  

 

Usual arguments against (And counter arguments)

 

"Its used for one thing." (yeah, BUT that ONE thing is engaging and requires lots of skill by the pilot, and the warthog is a ground pounder, it's only use in DCS, the F15C is pure air-to-air)

 

"Its super classified." (No, it isn't, was declassified in 2013, the only things unknown is the radar absorbing material, data link is as well but because that is still used in other aircraft, but guesses in DCS aircraft are not uncommon)

 

"You would never get the rights to make it!" (The A10C is still in use but we have that in the game so point is invalid, only special thing is stealth but the F-117 uses different tactics than say the F-35)

 

"It can't maneuver!" ( It isn't like a F15 or SU27 but it isn't helpless when it comes to maneuverability, the nickname "Wobblin Goblin" comes from the early prototype stage of the project which was corrected later, it still isn't a F15 though)

 

"Useless in multiplayer."(No it's not, those high value targets could prove their worth in the long run like on blue flag, don't fly the damn thing on 104th and go head first towards a SU or F15, the F-117 could prove its worth in multiplayer)

 

"Limited payload."( While two Gbu-12's seem little, the F-117 is remarkably accurate and when in an area of great threat, you won't want to loiter in the area for that long, PLUS if you want 10 bombs go fly the A10, that's what its purpose is for. It promotes skill and being smart with your payload)

 

"No AA weapons" (well then don't get in those engagements, or get a friend or two to escort you.)

 

And here's some manuals for a start, they may not be complete and may require more knowledge and documents http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/usa/lockheed/f-117nighthawk.html

 

 

So I'm prepared to be roasted and slapped around but I believe the F-117 could be a fun and enjoyable module in DCS. I know all module developers have projects on their plates already but I'm just putting seeds down hoping something would grow. :thumbup:

 

 

edit: was testing the links

[mvsgas]

But come on, like seriously who wouldn't want to own this plane as a module?

 

I wouldn't want to own this plane as a module.

[Emmy]

I have to agree. Deep Strike / Interdiction missions are the stuff of single player on nights where insomnia has you in its grip and you have nothing better to do than fly for three hours out and three hours back at "night" just to drop a bomb on a building / bridge / tower, etc...

 

Aside from intel gathering and route planning, there's nothing really to do once the wheels hit the wells and the FMS takes over.

[hughlb]

Sometimes DCS users sound like twitch gamers - if it doesn’t make lots of explosions, or go really fast, or travel in squads, we are not interested

 

For my money, no less interesting than the Cessna with the big gun ;) The Microprose game from the 90’s taught me, in its own Arcady way, that deep strike and evasion by stealth was both terifying and thrilling. Made hitting the target all the sweeter. I would absolutely love this module. For all the people wanting transports, F-111’s and MiG-25’s, let’s add F117 to the list - it was inspiring, ambitious, and used in multiple conflicts.

Edited December 27, 2017 by hughlb

[Airj247]

Just want to point out that I know that you usually would use the F-117 on long range pin point strike missions but isn't that the same with the aircraft we already have. With A10 strike missions everything is preplanned as well, same with all other strike aircraft. But they aren't used like that cause people just go out and blow up everything they see. When your playing blue flag or another multiplayer mission of sorts, you plan what target you want to attack and which way is deemed safe. So saying "You just take off and fly the planned route" isn't accurate for DCS. So many things could happen along the way. Planning your mission to avoid sams and being detected is a major part, so for a pilot who owns this module, planning his/her mission is just as important as carrying it out. Which I think would be pretty cool.

[ebabil]

probably i would buy it in day one just becasue it is a f-117.

but it is pretty useless in dcs environment. i would prefer a bomb truck instead.

[mvsgas]

Lets talk details

- No radios, antennas are stowed, radio comms are garble.

- No RWR

- No chaff/flare

- Flying at night so they do not see you (how many servers are set to night?)

- ~ 4g max

- ~.75 mach max

- under power (at Holloman AFB, with one GBU-12 and 10K fuel took almost all runway to take off)

- If aircraft departs flight, there is not recovery except ejecting. Stall, same.

Take off, straight level to the target, press pickle button when you suppose to, wait until impact and straight and level until line for ILS landing. Clouds or smoke can't bomb.

 

Not sure it would be fun at all.

[Airj247]

Lets talk details

- No radios, antennas are stowed, radio comms are garble.

- No RWR

- No chaff/flare

- Flying at night so they do not see you (how many servers are set to night?)

- ~ 4g max

- ~.75 mach max

- under power (at Holloman AFB, with one GBU-12 and 10K fuel took almost all runway to take off)

- If aircraft departs flight, there is not recovery except ejecting. Stall, same.

Take off, straight level to the target, press pickle button when you suppose to, wait until impact and straight and level until line for ILS landing. Clouds or smoke can't bomb.

 

Not sure it would be fun at all.

 

Not everyone has the same definition of fun.

 

Luckily we have been blessed with a mission editor to change the conditions best suited for the aircraft, Who the bloody hell would create a mission where they couldn't fly. As for the radios rwr and etc. So be it, the plane survived (except the one) you never use planes weaknesses, I know I never try to dog fight SU27 and 33's in a A10. Of course I'm just having wishful thinking, this is the wish list thread after all. As for mp servers not always being set to night, well sadly that's true not many mp servers are set to night, sadly that's a limitation. But then again not all servers allow ww2 aircraft. If I were to buy the P51 I wouldn't whine that I can't fly it on the 104th.

 

As for it being useless, luckily it doesn't take half an hour to develope the plane, probably a year or two. So in two years DCS could be very different, it might not. I can't predict the future.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Airj247

[mvsgas]

Luckily we have been blessed with a mission editor to change the conditions best suited for the aircraft...

 

[ATTACH]175008[/ATTACH]

[Airj247]

Wow would you look at that. Idk it was just a thought that occurred to me today, some people like certain things others don't. I know this plane would be an instant buy for me, while others may give it the cold shoulder. Just like how some like ww2 planes or trainers, and some don't.

[Red Dragon-DK]

The only problem I see here is it´s highly classified. It´s a military aircraft and is legitimate model for DCS like many others.

 

Some are interested and some are not and that´s the way it is for all military aircraft. I don´t believe we are going to see it here as mention in the start. To many secrets and classifications.

[Buzzles]

While I know mvsgas is biased against the plane as he hated working on them, I do concur with his conclusions.

 

It's very much a one trick pony, and its one trick is pretty boring.

 

Although I'd quite like one in DCS and definitely buy it for the novelty factor, the reality is I'd use it one or twice a year for something different for a few hours and that's it.

 

For missions/campaigns, it's one of those aircraft that's only got legs as an AI unit.

[Airj247]

The F15C is also a one trick pony, no one can say "oh but it does one job" cause so does other aircraft we got in DCS. For Christ sake we are getting the Christian Eagke 2. I just think that flying over enemy territory knowing that I could be shot down any minute seems like it could be entertaining. No one flies the A10C like it is used in real life. In reality the plane may takeoff, fly to its area of operations, loiter in the air for an hour or so, then rtb. While in DCS that would kill the fun factor. Just saying that there already are aircraft with one job that people love and it really isn't a boring aircraft.

 

Im not here to try and "sell" it to you. I just like the plane and thought it could add something different to DCS.

[Jester986]

Does it drive anyone else nuts that they called it the F-117 instead of the A-117?

[cthulhu68]

Does it drive anyone else nuts that they called it the F-117 instead of the A-117?

I heard they used F designation to lure test pilots into flying it because most pilots want to fly fighters not bombers or attack planes

[mvsgas]

I heard they used F designation to lure test pilots into flying it because most pilots want to fly fighters not bombers or attack planes

When I worked on them, there where several pilots that where not there by choice. No not sure about the "luring" part.

[Kippy]

I don't imagine the ED doing this module.

 

These things are still flying. They have been spotted flying around the Jedi Transition chased by F-16Ds as late as last month.

 

They've caused quite a buzz over the last year among aviation analysts.

[Airj247]

I don't imagine the ED doing this module.

 

These things are still flying. They have been spotted flying around the Jedi Transition chased by F-16Ds as late as last month.

 

They've caused quite a buzz over the last year among aviation analysts.

 

A10's, F15C's and more are still flying. The F-117 was declassified in 2013, very little things are still classified cause they are used on other aircraft still in use.

[Kippy]

A10's, F15C's and more are still flying. The F-117 was declassified in 2013, very little things are still classified cause they are used on other aircraft still in use.

A-10s, F15Cs, etc. were never formally "retired". Analysis suggests they're still being used extensively for testing radar tech out in the desert. That's why it's interesting to analysts. Analysts don't care about the plane per se, we care immensely about what's being done with it.

[Veillantif]

I would really like a F117 module. DCS could use a bomber!

[Home Fries]

I'm in. Personally, I think the deep strike mission is underrated in terms of fun. The fun is the ingress and the egress, and dropping the payload is just the midpoint.

 

Tactical navigation (particularly radar) is fun, and low level TACNAV in weather is more white-knuckle than dogfighting a Su-27 (after all, the Pk of a mountain is 1.0). I would get the 117 as a module (yeah, it's not low level, but that was an example).

Edited December 27, 2017 by Home Fries

[cthulhu68]

When I worked on them, there where several pilots that where not there by choice. No not sure about the "luring" part.

Digging into it a little more it seems most agree they called it a fighter because of START which limited amounts of bombers US or Russia could have or conceal its role as an attack plane. I know I heard the fighter designation was used for recruiting pilots. I guess they figured make that a sales pitch.

[Buzzles]

[snip]

 

One job isn't the same as a one trick pony.

 

The entire mission profile of the F117 is take off, fly to drop site via a preplanned route, drop its two bombs, fly home. There's no alternatives.

 

The comparison with the F-15C + A-10C isn't great, both carry a variety of armaments and have mulitple mission profiles. A-10C does CAS, FAC and iirc COIN ops for example.

Even the CE2 isn't a great counterpoint, because while obviously it's for airshows, I can guarantee you're also going to be seeing some of the MP stunt races swap to using it. Plus you can actually throw it around the skies and have fun with the FM.

 

While I too think doing that sort of mission in an F117 in SP could be quite fun once in a while, it really doesn't have a place in MP.

 

Tell you what though, if you really want it, why don't you make it happen and set up your own mod for DCS as a starting point?

Edited December 27, 2017 by Buzzles
Adding quote + fix some grammar

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

But come on, like seriously who wouldn't want to own this plane as a module?

I wouldn't...

 

A one-trick-pony that doesn't offer any exciting "gameplay" in DCS: take off, fly your waypoints, drop 2 GBU-24s, RTB... That's it... I don't get how that would be exciting. Maybe once or twice but once the "new-factor" settles it would be gathering dust.

 

Compare that to the versatility of an F/A-18 for example, which is a gazillion times more useful and infinitely better value-for-money. I just don't see how it's worth the development time.

[mvsgas]

The F-117 was declassified in 2013, very little things are still classified cause they are used on other aircraft still in use.

You have mention this several time so I would like to ask a few things. I am honestly asking and not trying to be a smart ass of diminish you opinion.

 

- Since it has been declassified for 4 years now, do we have any links to actual manuals that are not 25 years old? It looks like the link you provided where for incomplete manuals from 1992.

 

 

Lets break down system by systems, starting from the basics. Flight controls;

- So how do they work?

- Control surfaces on the wing, are the "flaperons" ? "elevons"?

- Are the vertical tails used as Rudders or "elevons"?

- How does the aircraft know AOA, side slip?

- What hydraulic system drive the control surfaces?

- What are the back ups?

- Does it use flaps? Speedbrakes?

 

It is declassified, so we should be able to find this basic stuff right?