AN/ALQ-184 Long

[Kippy]

Just wanted to post this thread up and see if it was possible for ED to produce a model for the ALQ-184 Long variant. From the images I've seen, they seem to be far more common on A-10s and F-16s these days than the short variant.

 

There is an option in the A-10C DSMS inventory page to load up an ALQ-184 Long. (As well as the ALQ-131 deep/shallow.) Obviously we can't actually psychically load one up because there's only a model for the short variant.

 

Considering that DCS's ECM is incredibly simplified and the only difference the ALQ-184 and the ALQ-131 share in game is aesthetic, I figure adding the ALQ-184 Long variant would be as easy as just creating a model for it and plugging it in. But I have no experience in the field, so take that as a grain of salt.

 

 

 

[Snoopy]

I’d love to have the 184 long. That’s all we have at Moody.

[Maverick966]

In fact the ALQ-184 long should be added since it is more common than the short one, but not only as a model, if ED were to update the radar model to a more realistic level, the long has in addition a low band module that can jam the low band radars, the same modified radar that detected and shot down the F-117 in Kosovo, a very sensitive and impractical radar, mainly used for weather forecasts, even if I think in DCS there are no low band radars.

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by Maverick966

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

 

ALQ-184 long is something we are planning to do but I have no ETA for you

 

thanks

[LordOrion]

ALQ-184 long has been released today on the F-16C

[Mr_sukebe]

What does the “long” bring to the party (apart from keeping the missus happy)?

[Northstar98]

Just now, Mr_sukebe said:

What does the “long” bring to the party (apart from keeping the missus happy)?

IRL it adds a low-band module allowing longer wavelength RADARs to be targetted (unsure what bands), in DCS, probably nothing, apart from being the more common pod.

[diditopgun]

So it just add more weight to the aircraft for nothing useful ....? (in DCS) 

[Northstar98]

2 minutes ago, diditopgun said:

So it just add more weight to the aircraft for nothing useful ....? (in DCS) 

Well, I guess it's useful for having loadouts more like real life (the long is much more common that the short on the F-16).

But it remains to be seen if DCS will improve its RADAR modelling, particularly for AI units.

[LordOrion]

In my experience so far, the effect of the ALQ-184 pad can be defined "cosmetic".

[Kev2go]

 

In theory 184 Long should be capable of jamming low band low frequency radars. So  for Example a EWR like the P12 should be jammable. Though i havent tested to see if there is any noticable difference.

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Kev2go

[QuiGon]

16 hours ago, LordOrion said:

In my experience so far, the effect of the ALQ-184 pad can be defined "cosmetic".

Not even a weight/drag difference?

[LordOrion]

15 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Not even a weight/drag difference?

I was actually talking about the effectiveness of use: turning on jamming signal does not seems to make much difference with SAM radars.

The pod probably increase drag just slightliy since it is mounted in the centrline axis and it is quite slim, at least compared to a fuel bag... I should make some test to be sure.

Same for weight: plane is already quite heavy when I carry it with me (usually 2 bags, 2xfox3, 2xfox1, mission payload, Litening pod, HTS) so it is difficult to notice the difference.

Edited January 28, 2022 by LordOrion

[QuiGon]

9 minutes ago, LordOrion said:

I was actually talking about the effectiveness of use: turning on jamming signal does not seems to make much difference with SAM radars.

Alright, but that's not really suprising, as all DCS does with ECM is setting an ECM flag to true on the jamming aircraft. AFAIK there is no signal strength, jamming behaviour, etc.

[LordOrion]

1 minute ago, QuiGon said:

Alright, but that's not really suprising, as all DCS does with ECM is setting an ECM flag to true on the jamming aircraft. AFAIK there is no signal strength, jamming behaviour, etc.

Well it actually is, at least for me: In my experience the Bug jammer has some effect on AA and AG radars, althoug really limited. I was expecting at least the same from the Viper.

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, LordOrion said:

Well it actually is, at least for me: In my experience the Bug jammer has some effect on AA and AG radars, althoug really limited. I was expecting at least the same from the Viper.

The Viper ECM pod does have effects on AA and AG radars. If used in mode 3 it reduces the lock on range for AI units, just like all other jammers in DCS do. If used in mode 1 or 2 it does some lock breaking, although I'm not sure how this is implemented. I suspect mode 1 or 2 just set the ECM flag to true if locked on by an enemy radar and thus causing the radar to loose lock (if not in burn through). I think it's the same effects if you use mode 3 but only activate it when you're locked up.

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, LordOrion said:

Well it actually is, at least for me: In my experience the Bug jammer has some effect on AA and AG radars, althoug really limited. I was expecting at least the same from the Viper.

I'm fairly sure this is just a simplistic emulation, as in past the burn-through range (which might just be a set distance for each RADAR), I think there's just some probability that the jammer will break the lock within a certain time/range of time.

AI RADARs are far too simplistic to model what's actually going on, they're so simple they don't even differentiate between 2D and 3D RADARs, or pulse RADARs vs pulse-doppler RADARs, it doesn't take into account RADAR frequencies/bands etc. Though, perhaps it isn't necessary for the time being.

Even for player aircraft, the only RADAR that actually models signal processing AFAIK is the Mirage 2000C, and AFAIK it's also the only one to model track-breaking (via actual track-breaking techniques) on its own RADAR.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Northstar98

[LordOrion]

31 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

The Viper ECM pod does have effects on AA and AG radars. If used in mode 3 it reduces the lock on range for AI units, just like all other jammers in DCS do. If used in mode 1 or 2 it does some lock breaking, although I'm not sure how this is implemented. I suspect mode 1 or 2 just set the ECM flag to true if locked on by an enemy radar and thus causing the radar to loose lock (if not in burn through). I think it's the same effects if you use mode 3 but only activate it when you're locked up.

This is not what I saw: I'm using mode 3 but SAMs still lock and shoot me at the same distance, jammer active or not.

 

26 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I'm fairly sure this is just a simplistic emulation, as in past the burn-through range (which might just be a set distance for each RADAR), there's some probability that the jammer will break the lock within a certain time/range of time.

Well, If probability is part of the equation then I have probably been VERY unlucky

That however make much more sense over it.

This evening I will try the Long pod, maybe I will be move lucky this time

Edited January 28, 2022 by LordOrion

[Northstar98]

21 minutes ago, LordOrion said:

This evening I will try the Long pod, maybe I will be move lucky this time

I strongly doubt there's a practical difference between the 2, as IRL the only difference I'm aware of is the low-band module, allowing lower frequency/longer wavelength RADARs to be targeted.

DCS doesn't model RADAR bands and effectively treats every RADAR and every jammer as being on the same frequency.

I guess only testing will tell.

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

Even for player aircraft, the only RADAR that actually models signal processing AFAIK is the Mirage 2000C, and AFAIK it's also the only one to model track-breaking (via actual track-breaking techniques) on its own RADAR.

I've never heard of this Mirage feature and I can't really imagine this being true. RAZBAM is limited to the same API as all the other developers and AFAIK in terms of ECM there is just this ECM boolean that can bet set. Having said that, the Viper jammer can also do lock-breaking against other players, but as I said above, I suspect it does that by just setting the ECM boolean to true when locked up, providing the same effect as when you manually start jamming when you get locked up.
 

1 hour ago, LordOrion said:

This is not what I saw: I'm using mode 3 but SAMs still lock and shoot me at the same distance, jammer active or not.

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by QuiGon

[Northstar98]

Just now, QuiGon said:

I've never heard of this Mirage feature and I can't really imagine this being true. RAZBAM is limited to the same API as all the other developers and AFAIK in terms of ECM there is just this ECM boolean that can bet set.

I'm just repeating what it says in the manual (see page 313), and I've certainly seen my track move erroneously in range across the display when in PSIC mode against a jammer, sometimes causing track to be lost.

It still uses that boolean ECM flag, but in PSIC mode it treats all jammers as track-breakers, and noise jammers in HFR/BFR modes (see pages 311 and 312 respectively).

[QuiGon]

4 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I'm just repeating what it says in the manual (see page 313), and I've certainly seen my track move erroneously in range across the display when in PSIC mode against a jammer, sometimes causing track to be lost.

Oh, you are talking about how the Mirage handles incomming jamming? Then I'm sorry, as I thought you were talking about how the Mirage's own jammer works. Of course RAZBAM can model all kinds of pseudo effects when it comes to handling incomming jamming.

Edited January 28, 2022 by QuiGon

[Northstar98]

3 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Oh, you are talking about how the Mirage handles incomming jamming?Then I'm sorry, as I thought you were talking about how the Mirage's own jammer works. Of course RAZBAM can model all kinds of pseudo effects when it comes to handling incomming jamming.

Yes, my apologies, I should've specified that I was talking about jamming effects on RADARs, not the Mirage's jammer.

AFAIK the Mirage's jammer is treated just like a noise jammer (like pretty much everything else) but I think the transmit logic is representative of track breaking (i.e only when a RADAR in a track/fire-control mode (i.e STT) or an ARH seeker detected).

[QuiGon]

14 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

AFAIK the Mirage's jammer is treated just like a noise jammer (like pretty much everything else)

It just set's the ECM flag to ON, like any other jammer in DCS. It's upon the recieving aircraft to modell effects on how to treat it. It's possible though that the Mirage only sets this flag to ON when being locked up. I've never tested this in detail with the Mirage.

[Northstar98]

8 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

It just set's the ECM flag to ON, like any other jammer in DCS. It's possible though that the Mirage only sets this flag to ON when being locked up. I've never tested this in detail with the Mirage.

Yes that's probably how it works.

Though in DCS that ECM flag is for noise jamming (though not sure what happens with regard to track breaking on the F-16CM and F/A-18C) and is fairly consistent across all modules (with only a couple of exceptions).

8 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

It's upon the recieving aircraft to modell effects on how to treat it.

Fortunately this is fairly consistent (treated as a noise jammer across all modules AFAIK), though the Mirage 2000C does the best job of representing it.

The only exception is the Mirage 2000C in PSIC (STT) mode, which treats them as track-breakers and maybe the JF-17 (though I don't know nearly enough about what's happening with that, at a guess I'd say range ambiguity).