How do you land this thing?

[Nealius]

So, after about a week of flying the Sabre, I still cannot get a decent landing out of her. Even the Spitfire is easier.

 

My first problem is pattern work: The nose is all over the damn place. It seems to have a very unstable pitch axis, trim is very sluggish, and once flaps are down beyond a third, the trim doesn't seem to help much at all.

 

On final approach, everything is fine. On a (what appears to be) 3° glideslope, 130-ish kts.

 

Crossing the threshold is where I get the second problem. Cut throttle to idle, as I get closer to touchdown I try to flare out, aiming for 110kts. I pull back the stick, nose comes up, descent rate doesn't decrease. I pull harder, nose goes higher, descent rate still won't decrease, and I smack the tarmac at -500fpm, bouncing and nearly tipping a wing, or even having a tail strike.

 

This is with no stores, about 1000lbs of fuel, 2/3 to full flaps, boards out. How do you grease the tires on this jet?

[razo+r]

This video might help you.

 

 

So, maybe try a bit more speed on approach.

[flyingscotsman]

Could it be that your axes are not set right in controls?

When I start with any new aircraft I find I have to delete any extra axes that my set up has put in by default. I.E. my pedal's affect other axes, turn right rudder and my throttle goes mad, my toe brakes affect the flaps etc, so could I suggest a quick look in there to make sure what should be in control, is.

[Nealius]

Axes are fine, I cleared those out and set everything up before I even got in the cockpit.

[Buzzles]

Crossing the threshold is where I get the second problem. Cut throttle to idle, as I get closer to touchdown I try to flare out, aiming for 110kts.

This is your problem. Follow the manual: Don't cut the throttle early and don't flare it like a WWII bird.

 

Cross the threshold under power and fly yourself into a nice level 2-3 feet off the runway then chop the throttle.

Don't flare to land. It'll just settle down on its own and you just need to apply the bare minimum stick back to keep the nosewheel off the deck.

Once it's two wheels on the deck, then pull back to aerobrake.

 

...I pull harder, nose goes higher, descent rate still won't decrease, and I smack the tarmac at -500fpm...

Forward speed = lift. You've already killed the throttle so pulling back is just putting you into a stall.

It's counter-intuitive, but if you want to slow the rate of descent when at low power or speed, nose down to pick up forward speed and pull level. Add throttle when needed.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Buzzles

[Sn8ke_iis]

Always good to have kneeboard reference for speeds, rpm, etc. Chuck's guides are essential if you are switching up between aircraft.

 

If you can land a Spittie, you shouldn't be having a problem.

 

Do you use airbrake? Proper landing configuration is to hold the recommend pattern and approach speeds with airbrake. If you need to go around close it up and slowly increase throttle.

 

Make sure you have the trim set for take off and landing configuration. The light will blink on the dash when the pitch and roll are in proper range.

 

The previous poster was spot on, not much to add. Just practice a good steady gliding descent. The landing gear is pretty tough, she can handle an imperfect flare. I don't usually cut to idle till touchdown. Even then, you don't really have to. You have to spool her back up to ~65% anyway to taxi, depending on fuel weight remaining. She's lighter than when you left. Cutting to idle and wheelbrakes just help slow down faster. I rely more on wheel brakes for yaw than rudder after touchdown. You lose rudder authority pretty quickly as speed bleeds off.

 

Once you get her on the ground consistently and safely you can practice touch and gos with aerobraking. It's fun and makes you feel special. Looks cool on recordings too.

 

Remember, you're in a nice bubble canopy on the nose of the aircraft, not buried in the fuselage like the Spit. The perspective will be a bit different, you'll be able to see your touchdown point. I keep the view shift off in the options and just raise the seat a little.

[philstyle]

I pull back the stick, nose comes up, descent rate doesn't decrease. I pull harder, nose goes higher, descent rate still won't decrease, and I smack the tarmac at -500fpm, bouncing and nearly tipping a wing, or even having a tail strike.

 

Pulling back is going to increase your descent rate at low speeds, you need power to reduce rate of decent in the F86.

The Spitfire is an odd bird, in that it has massive wings and is very "floaty". The sabre not. The Sabre has tiny wings that generate F-all lift, especially at low speed whe compared to the spitfire.

 

Also, the attitude for landing the Sabre is completely different from the spitfire. The spitfire is generally landed with a nose slightly above level, in order to get the main gear down and provide the right AoA so that the tail-wheel will settle.

The Sabre doesn't have a tail-wheel, but a nose wheel. You can land it in a much more "level" attitude. When first trying this, if you are used to the spitfire, it might feel like you are learning forward too much in the Sabre, as though you would prop-strike (if it had a prop). Don't worry though.

[VIKBELL]

I have always found the Sabre is easiest aircraft I own to land.

[bbrz]

Pulling back is going to increase your descent rate at low speeds, you need power to reduce rate of decent in the F86.

The Spitfire is an odd bird, in that it has massive wings and is very "floaty". The sabre not. The Sabre has tiny wings that generate F-all lift, especially at low speed whe compared to the spitfire.

 

Also, the attitude for landing the Sabre is completely different from the spitfire. The spitfire is generally landed with a nose slightly above level, in order to get the main gear down and provide the right AoA so that the tail-wheel will settle.

The Sabre doesn't have a tail-wheel, but a nose wheel. You can land it in a much more "level" attitude.

If the ROD increases when you are pulling back on the stick you are on the backside of the drag/power curve.

 

Btw, for a jetfighter the F-86F has a rather big wing (and the same wing loading as a Bf-109G)

 

If the approach speed is correct the ROD will decrease when you pull back on the stick and you shouldn't need any thrust to land/flare the F-86.

 

The RW manuals mentions to reduce thrust when landing is assured and that a full stall landing isn't recommended because the aft section of fuselage would drag.

 

So a noticeable flare at idle thrust and a marked nose up attitude should be possible and the target.

 

Looks like the approach speed is simply way too low.

 

The RW F-86F manuals mentions a final approach speed of 145kts and a touchdown speed of 120kts.

[Nealius]

The 135kts vs. 145kts / 110kts vs. 120kts must be a slat vs. non-slat airframe. I took the 135/110kts figure from a RW diagram on Chuck's guide, which I believe is for a Sabre with slats.

[Ramsay]

TL;DR:

 

Looks like the approach speed is simply way too low.

This

 

The RW F-86F manuals mentions a final approach speed of 145kts and a touchdown speed of 120kts.

A good rule of thumb i.e. what I remember, if I've been lazy and haven't made a guess at the aircraft weight.

 

Detail:

 

So, after about a week of flying the Sabre, I still cannot get a decent landing out of her.

 

... This is with no stores, about 1000lbs of fuel

 

So you are about 13,000 lbs total.

 

On final approach, everything is fine. On a (what appears to be) 3° glideslope, 130-ish kts.

About 10 KIAS slow

 

Crossing the threshold is where I get the second problem. Cut throttle to idle, as I get closer to touchdown I try to flare out, aiming for 110 kts ... with 2/3 to full flaps, boards out.

 

110 KIAS is 4 kts above any stall warning (buffet) and you should already have touched down.

 

Touchdown should be at 116 KIAS with full flaps or at 121 KIAS with 20° flaps.

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Ramsay
typo in picture

[bbrz]

The 135kts vs. 145kts / 110kts vs. 120kts must be a slat vs. non-slat airframe. I took the 135/110kts figure from a RW diagram on Chuck's guide, which I believe is for a Sabre with slats.

And that's exactly the problem.

Edited September 24, 2018 by bbrz

[Ramsay]

The 135kts vs. 145kts / 110kts vs. 120kts must be a slat vs. non-slat airframe. I took the 135/110kts figure from a RW diagram on Chuck's guide, which I believe is for a Sabre with slats.

 

Here is the correct diagram from F-86F-30_FM_TO_01.pdf (F-86F Flt Manual + perf data.pdf is a larger file size but looks to be the same document).

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Ramsay
Add mediafire link to similar .pdf

[Nealius]

Man, why did we get a guide with speeds for slats when we don't have slats on our F-86 :p

 

Question on the stall warning: Is there a switch for that? I have never had a stall warning go off, even when stalling.

[bbrz]

Question on the stall warning: Is there a switch for that? I have never had a stall warning go off, even when stalling.

I don't think so. Isn't there any pre-stall buffeting?

[Charly_Owl]

Man, why did we get a guide with speeds for slats when we don't have slats on our F-86 :p

 

Because I'm an idiot ;)

 

I'll try to place the correct picture this time. Sorry about that.

[arturojgt]

How do you land this thing?

 

So, after about a week of flying the Sabre, I still cannot get a decent landing out of her. Even the Spitfire is easier.

 

 

 

My first problem is pattern work: The nose is all over the damn place. It seems to have a very unstable pitch axis, trim is very sluggish, and once flaps are down beyond a third, the trim doesn't seem to help much at all.

 

 

 

On final approach, everything is fine. On a (what appears to be) 3° glideslope, 130-ish kts.

 

 

 

Crossing the threshold is where I get the second problem. Cut throttle to idle, as I get closer to touchdown I try to flare out, aiming for 110kts. I pull back the stick, nose comes up, descent rate doesn't decrease. I pull harder, nose goes higher, descent rate still won't decrease, and I smack the tarmac at -500fpm, bouncing and nearly tipping a wing, or even having a tail strike.

 

 

 

This is with no stores, about 1000lbs of fuel, 2/3 to full flaps, boards out. How do you grease the tires on this jet?

 

 

 

Hi, try to land a little faster. It is beautiful plane for fly.

 

 

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk Pro

Edited September 24, 2018 by arturojgt

[Squiffy]

Yes, faster. I have found that around 150 kts is pretty smooth and stable. You may need to adjust your glide slope angle but it works for me with a typical overhead about 4000 ft. or direct approach near 2000.

[Nealius]

I don't think so. Isn't there any pre-stall buffeting?

 

I don't recall having any the last time I tried a spin. Nothing more than the typical DCS "camera shake."

 

I kinda wish we had a jet with slats just for the eyecandy of seeing them move during flight.

[bbrz]

I don't recall having any the last time I tried a spin. Nothing more than the typical DCS "camera shake."

What else would you expect? Since you are not sitting in a motion sim, that's the only kind of 'buffeting' you will get.

[Ramsay]

Question on the stall warning: Is there a switch for that? I have never had a stall warning go off, even when stalling.

 

The first indication of a stall is a slight yawing tendency as the stall is approached.

 

To quote/paraphrase from the flight manual:

Airplanes Without Slats

 

On airplanes without slats, unaccelerated stalls (stalls at 1G) in any configuration occur without any noticeable general airframe buffet.

 

The first indication of a stall is a slight yawing tendency as the stall is approached. This is followed by an abrupt roll and yaw in either direction. Below this speed, it is difficult to keep the wings level. These stalling characteristics are the same with gear and flaps up or down. Likewise, external loads, such as external wing tanks, do not alter this stall pattern of yaw and roll tendencies.

 

The stall speeds shown in figure 6-2 for airplanes without slats are the speeds at which this yaw and roll occur and, therefore, must be closely observed to prevent accidents.

 

Accelerated Stalls

 

An accelerated stall (sometimes referred to as a "high-speed stall") is primarily a stall that occurs while pulling more than 1 G and is usually preceded by airplane buffet.

[Nealius]

What else would you expect? Since you are not sitting in a motion sim, that's the only kind of 'buffeting' you will get.

 

Other DCS aircraft visually buffet. This is different than the "camera shake" that I referenced. Off the top of my head, the P-51D does this. The airframe itself buffets, then the camera shake comes afterwards.

[bbrz]

Strange. The only thing I get with the TF-51 and other planes is a cockpit/airframe/camera shake (or whatever you call it) with increasing intensity...

[Bun]

Beautiful plane the F86

 

 

Speed brakes out until you're below 200 knots

Drop gear and flaps

Trim up until the light comes on

Adjust throttle for 150 knots during glide slope - adjust throttle constantly

 

When you're just above the runway level out

 

Throttle to idle and let it settle

 

Keep speed brakes out during whole landing

 

Aerobrake with dash level with horizon

 

 

Lands much like the L39 as long as you hit the numbers

 

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy

[arturojgt]

Trim up until the light comes on

 

 

That is the secret ingredient.

 

 

 

Sent from my Tornado IDS while on autopilot using Tapatalk Pro.