CF-105 Avro "Arrow"

[SC86]

I know the Avro Arrow never made it into service, it was cancelled by the Canadian government due to costs and useless Bomarc missles, but it would be awesome to see it in this game. There could be some fictional campaigns and such. The specifications for this plane were monstrous for the era, some say it could have outclassed some 4th generation fighters/interceptors in some areas.

 

Here is a video documentary on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sFRiacvNYo&t=2433s

 

First Flight:

[Svsmokey]

Though a Yank , i have to say that what happened to the Arrow was a most unsavory debacle . Not only the program ending on such false premises , and the destruction of all airframes in a fit of pique , but the dissolution of a great company , and the ensuing loss of talent to the nation , will forever leave a foul taste in the mouth of anyone who is aware of the history .

[Kev2go]

Though a Yank , i have to say that what happened to the Arrow was a most unsavory debacle . Not only the program ending on such false premises , and the destruction of all air frames in a fit of pique , but the dissolution of a great company , and the ensuing loss of talent to the nation , will forever leave a foul taste in the mouth of anyone who is aware of the history .

 

even as a cancuk,

 

i think the arrow was overrated. Basically what Canada would have gotten would be a radarless, over-sized F102 delta dart, with the craptastic Aim4 Falcon missile, but 4 years later and at 2-3 times the projected cost ( if it entered service) most fellow Canadians let patriotism cloud rational analysis. Whilst it did have some innovative designs from its inception It would have been obsolete if it entered service in 1959 of the year it was cancelled.

 

The real hurt of the cancellation of the arrow was not the loss of some Legendary would be plane, but the brain drain of Canada's Defense Aerospace industry, and thus being reliant on the US for military aviation.

 

 

 

Immediately this following opinion is in hindsight ; given Canada relatively meager Defense Budget for a 1st world Nato member, The sort of plane that canadian industry should have designed an in house inexpensive lightweight tactical fighter akin to the Northrop F-5. And if said industry Did exit today I could certainly see that eventually gravitate to building fighters like Swedish Gripen for that very reason.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Kev2go

[Svsmokey]

It is difficult to asess the caapabilities of an aircraft in such an early state of development , but we certainly do agree about the loss of aerospace talent to the nation .

[AeriaGloria]

Anyone seen this guys proposition for a fifth gen arrow? I heard somewhere he got shot down and RCAF are gonna stick with Hornets for now

 

https://youtu.be/aP5ElnvhIm0

[Kev2go]

Anyone seen this guys proposition for a fifth gen arrow? I heard somewhere he got shot down and RCAF are gonna stick with Hornets for now

 

https://youtu.be/aP5ElnvhIm0

 

 

Of course it got shot down.

 

 

It would be impractical from both financial and technological perspective to entirely from scratch to produce airframe that was based on design philosophies that existed during the 1950s, even if you could refit it with modern avionics and weapons systems.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Kev2go

[Gladman]

Anyone seen this guys proposition for a fifth gen arrow? I heard somewhere he got shot down and RCAF are gonna stick with Hornets for now

 

https://youtu.be/aP5ElnvhIm0

 

Please, just... ... just don't.

[SC86]

True, good to know that someone outside of Canada knows of it.

[SC86]

I agree with the first part of the answer, that it would have been late, crappy missiles and radar (though if they kept going with development they could have adopted radar and better missiles. I wish I knew more about it's maneuverability, though being a 1950 Delta-ish shape I think it would have been fairly bad, also due to interceptor role.

 

But building an F-5 style plane I think would have been too small, not incapable, but it wouldn't have the reach cross country or out to sea, especially with some of the planes the Russians were building. Something a bit bigger and with more range I think would have been better. Even if it was just a larger F-5 with more capable engines and fuel and weight capacity.

[SC86]

I have seen that video many times, I think it is ambitious to build that style of 5th gen aircraft as a restart for Canada's military aviation. I'm not sure we need stealth like is seen on many of the modern aircraft. I think due to the roles we often play, guessing that we aren't usually the first air force in the combat zone. maybe the F-117, F-22, F35, B2, would be in there first. We may be able to get away with a 4th gen style body with better maneuverability and higher rated engines. but maybe I'm wrong. I think the Russians have stopped building their Su-57, though other countries are now coming out with stealthy aircraft. who knows, not I.

[Rotor57]

Though a Yank , i have to say that what happened to the Arrow was a most unsavory debacle . Not only the program ending on such false premises , and the destruction of all airframes in a fit of pique , but the dissolution of a great company , and the ensuing loss of talent to the nation , will forever leave a foul taste in the mouth of anyone who is aware of the history .

 

My sentiments exactly. Glad to hear good words from south of the border.

Cheers

[benphillias]

I wish someone would make the Avro Arrow for DCS. Even though it would have limited intercepting capabilities against newer aircraft, it would still be my favorite module.

[Fangs Out]

Similar to the Mig-19P tho the Mig has its fans, +1 for the Arrow.

[Evoman]

No doubt that the Arrow would be an interesting aircraft to fly in DCS if it were possible. I say if it were possible because in order to make any high fidelity module for DCS all of the flight data would be required. Which unfortunately all the documentation and data was destroyed when the project was shut down.

[Dragon1-1]

Not all, blueprints and some other things were saved, despite the orders. I don't know whether it'd be enough, though.

[XiVLuisiferXiV]

a company in alberta,canada bought the rights to it a few years ago and has collected the engine and other documentation 

[Spino]

On 5/19/2019 at 8:16 PM, SC86 said:

I agree with the first part of the answer, that it would have been late, crappy missiles and radar (though if they kept going with development they could have adopted radar and better missiles. I wish I knew more about it's maneuverability, though being a 1950 Delta-ish shape I think it would have been fairly bad, also due to interceptor role.

 

But building an F-5 style plane I think would have been too small, not incapable, but it wouldn't have the reach cross country or out to sea, especially with some of the planes the Russians were building. Something a bit bigger and with more range I think would have been better. Even if it was just a larger F-5 with more capable engines and fuel and weight capacity.

As I remember it, relatively long range was supposed to be one of the requirements for the CF-105.  Four hundred nautical miles wasn't too bad for the era, especially for a supersonic interceptor.  As for maneuverability, delta wings are actually rather good in that regard (Mirage 2000, Gripen, Typhoon, and so on).  The catch is that you need a high power-to-weight ratio in order to keep the aircraft from stalling out during hard maneuvers.  In this regard I suspect the Arrow would have been better than average, at least for the time.  The Mk 1 Arrow had a thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.825, not far off that of the early F-4 Phantom II variants.  Had it gone into production, the Mk 2 with significantly more powerful engines could have had the best thrust-to-weight ratio of any aircraft of the era, except perhaps the XF8U-3.  Of course that does assume that the Orenda engines intended to power the Mk 2 performed as advertised.  There may have been some limitations in certain flight regimes due to blanking of the vertical tail, but you'd only encounter this in a dogfight - something the Arrow wasn't really designed for.

If the Arrow had gone into production and stayed in service as long as the F-101s that Canada eventually got instead, then they could have installed new radars and missiles later on.  The nose may have been big enough to incorporate the AWG-10 from the F-4J or the APG-63 from the F-15A; paired with AIM-7F/M that would have been a far more potent combination than the Canadian F-101s and their Falcon missiles.  Interesting what-if for sure.

Edited October 1, 2024 by Spino