Detecting IR Missiles

[shagrat]

It does? I've been flying the A-10 all this time and not getting warnings from IR missiles. It's what sucks about flying over an unknown manpad. All you get is a thump and your trying to figure out why your computer's just turned off and half your plane is missing.

Yes, it does indeed. And like the RWR sensors, it does not cover the area directly beneath and above the plane.

When you bank hard and point the belly towards the MANPAD, it won't pick up the launch. If you fly high directly above an SA-9 its launch may be in the blind spot.

These systems have no super powers or are invincible, as this is not a "Mario Land" power up.

 

A good practice is to drop flares (one at a time, 1-2 seconds intervall) to spoof a lock before it happens.

[WinterH]

How do you know if an IR missile is lunging your way? Well, you don't.

 

Some aircraft have missile approach warning systems, but they are usually put on ground attackers rather than fighters. Only the most recent fighters started to get some such warning systems.

 

You spot them visually, or consider one is fired when a bandit gets advantage over you and dump a few flares preemptively.

 

As for the AI, well, they cheat, they always did :P.

 

Even when you have a missile warning system, like others have said, it may fail to provide warning sometimes due to blindspots etc.

[FlyBoyd]

Let's not forget that the job of a pilot prior to stepping to his aircraft is to ensure that he has as much intel he can so he knows what to expect. If you know there is a potential for a IR missile SAM site or manpad or the enemy bandits then you have to do some mission planning. Either you have to remain outside of their WEZ over the target area or pre-emptive flares over the target area and keep your eyes open. That is what we do real world and is not much different than DCS.

 

As for the bandit, if he gets on your six and has a solution with IR missiles then you can expect he will shoot one at you. Have to keep your head on that swivel and use those defensive manuevers to not give him a solution. While I agree that it seems the bandits in the game are really smart at defeating IR guided missiles there is a video that shows this in practice. There is video of a F-15 taking a shot at a Mig23. You can see in the HUD tape that the Mig defeats the first missile with some exceptionally timed flares. That was a AIM-9X btw! I can tell you that they didn't have an IR detect system in that plane. He knew the F-15 was behind him and either saw the missile being fired or he just got lucky with the dispense button! On a side note I bet the weapons school put in some long hours trying to figure out how that happened! :pilotfly:

[Banzaiib]

Let's not forget that the job of a pilot prior to stepping to his aircraft is to ensure that he has as much intel he can so he knows what to expect. If you know there is a potential for a IR missile SAM site or manpad or the enemy bandits then you have to do some mission planning. Either you have to remain outside of their WEZ over the target area or pre-emptive flares over the target area and keep your eyes open. That is what we do real world and is not much different than DCS.

 

As for the bandit, if he gets on your six and has a solution with IR missiles then you can expect he will shoot one at you. Have to keep your head on that swivel and use those defensive manuevers to not give him a solution. While I agree that it seems the bandits in the game are really smart at defeating IR guided missiles there is a video that shows this in practice. There is video of a F-15 taking a shot at a Mig23. You can see in the HUD tape that the Mig defeats the first missile with some exceptionally timed flares. That was a AIM-9X btw! I can tell you that they didn't have an IR detect system in that plane. He knew the F-15 was behind him and either saw the missile being fired or he just got lucky with the dispense button! On a side note I bet the weapons school put in some long hours trying to figure out how that happened! :pilotfly:

 

I'm gonna need some sauce on that?

 

(link to video please?)

 

:)

[FlyBoyd]

I'm gonna need some sauce on that?

 

(link to video please?)

 

:)

 

Unfortunately I just remembered the video hasn't been released yet...:music_whistling:

 

It does exist however.

[Blaze1]

Unfortunately I just remembered the video hasn't been released yet...:music_whistling:

 

It does exist however.

 

Interesting. I remember there being a conversation here about ineffectiveness of flares against the AIM-9X due to its FPA seeker, with the another side saying flares could still work and is one of the reasons the missile received/is receiving ECCM upgrades.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Blaze1

[Blaze1]

Let's not forget that the job of a pilot prior to stepping to his aircraft is to ensure that he has as much intel he can so he knows what to expect. If you know there is a potential for a IR missile SAM site or manpad or the enemy bandits then you have to do some mission planning. Either you have to remain outside of their WEZ over the target area or pre-emptive flares over the target area and keep your eyes open. That is what we do real world and is not much different than DCS.

 

As for the bandit, if he gets on your six and has a solution with IR missiles then you can expect he will shoot one at you. Have to keep your head on that swivel and use those defensive manuevers to not give him a solution. While I agree that it seems the bandits in the game are really smart at defeating IR guided missiles there is a video that shows this in practice. There is video of a F-15 taking a shot at a Mig23. You can see in the HUD tape that the Mig defeats the first missile with some exceptionally timed flares. That was a AIM-9X btw! I can tell you that they didn't have an IR detect system in that plane. He knew the F-15 was behind him and either saw the missile being fired or he just got lucky with the dispense button! On a side note I bet the weapons school put in some long hours trying to figure out how that happened! :pilotfly:

 

I'm gonna need some sauce on that?

 

(link to video please?)

 

:)

Okay I just found this: https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/2017/06/23/how-did-a-30-year-old-su-22-defeat-a-modern-aim-9x/

I didn't realise the AIM-9X had been fired in anger yet.

[Cik]

dispense pre-emptively at all times.

 

 

 

plan your attacks such that you will have flares for every run, or simply accept that you may get blasted making a pass.

 

 

do a thorough recon of the area prior to making your attacks such that you can account for most of the air defenses, and suppress those first if able.

 

 

following these two principles, IR missiles will no longer be a significant problem for you.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Missile Approach Warning System

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_approach_warning_system#Types_of_missile_approach_warning_systems

[Teriander]

So let me get this straight... The US Government bought a F-18c at about 30 million each, installed expensive ECM devices, the ability to detect incoming radar guided missiles, but when it was time to discuss detecting incoming IR missiles, that's where they drew the line???

 

"We've already spent 30 million, we can't afford to spend another million on an IR detection system. Let's just tell the pilots to put their 'heads on a swivel' or hope their wingman sees a launch in time for them to yell flare and say a prayer."

 

I mean seriously, that's like a police force deciding not to use Bullet Proof Jackets because they cost money, and telling the officers to depend on their partner to tell them where the bullets are coming from.

[Cik]

are you in an area where the enemy have IR missiles

are you below the engagement range of these missiles

 

 

dispense

 

 

it's why you have flares senpai. there isn't unlimited space in these birds; the extra weight, maintenance profile, cost, and potentially limited effectiveness of the device means it was left out.

 

 

you have a brain, you have flares, you have eyeballs and a wingman, you should rarely have trouble with being struck by missiles. if you are having such trouble you are:

 

 

1. flying your missions incorrectly

2. flying impossible missions

3. making mistakes

 

 

why isn't every plane bulletproof with a 30mm gun? because it would result in unacceptable compromises in other parts of the design deemed more important. having a bunch of extraneous sensors hanging out of your aircraft causes more drag than they were willing to accept. MWS is not standard equipment and using it as a crutch is foolish.

[Eaglewings]

So let me get this straight... The US Government bought a F-18c at about 30 million each, installed expensive ECM devices, the ability to detect incoming radar guided missiles, but when it was time to discuss detecting incoming IR missiles, that's where they drew the line???

 

"We've already spent 30 million, we can't afford to spend another million on an IR detection system. Let's just tell the pilots to put their 'heads on a swivel' or hope their wingman sees a launch in time for them to yell flare and say a prayer."

 

I mean seriously, that's like a police force deciding not to use Bullet Proof Jackets because they cost money, and telling the officers to depend on their partner to tell them where the bullets are coming from.

It does really beg this question.

The investment on one aircraft does require a provision for protection against such mean and seemingly invisible weapon.

[Eddie]

So let me get this straight... The US Government bought a F-18c at about 30 million each, installed expensive ECM devices, the ability to detect incoming radar guided missiles, but when it was time to discuss detecting incoming IR missiles, that's where they drew the line???

 

"We've already spent 30 million, we can't afford to spend another million on an IR detection system. Let's just tell the pilots to put their 'heads on a swivel' or hope their wingman sees a launch in time for them to yell flare and say a prayer."

 

I mean seriously, that's like a police force deciding not to use Bullet Proof Jackets because they cost money, and telling the officers to depend on their partner to tell them where the bullets are coming from.

 

Such systems weren’t a thing when aircraft like the Hornet where designed and built. Retro fitting them can be done, but only if the need is there. In the real world, where tactics, techniques, and procedures exist and are followed, there often isn’t the need to add such systems to legacy platforms. Adding such systems to legacy platforms is expensive and complex from a design and modification point of view, often prohibitively so.

 

Missile approach warning systems are not the magic solution people here seem to think. They can help yes, but aircrew still fly exactly the same way they did before they came along.

[TAW_Blaze]

MWS isn't such a big deal unless you're flying low. In A2A a good pilot will have the SA and can either presume the threat being there or spot it visually. If he does not have the SA it probably wouldn't matter. It might come in handy every now and then but if somebody got close enough for IR shots then chances are even if you get a warning it won't save your ass from the radar guided follow up shots. I'm not sure how well these systems work against smokeless rocket motors but in a Gen 5 scenario they might be a bit more useful.

 

Bottom line is you need to know your environment. If the first time you find out there's a bandit out there due to your RWR or MWS is blinking because he's shooting at you then you're probably dead.

[Top Jockey]

are you in an area where the enemy have IR missiles

are you below the engagement range of these missiles

 

 

dispense

 

 

it's why you have flares senpai. there isn't unlimited space in these birds; the extra weight, maintenance profile, cost, and potentially limited effectiveness of the device means it was left out.

 

 

you have a brain, you have flares, you have eyeballs and a wingman, you should rarely have trouble with being struck by missiles. if you are having such trouble you are:

 

 

1. flying your missions incorrectly

2. flying impossible missions

3. making mistakes

 

 

why isn't every plane bulletproof with a 30mm gun? because it would result in unacceptable compromises in other parts of the design deemed more important. having a bunch of extraneous sensors hanging out of your aircraft causes more drag than they were willing to accept. MWS is not standard equipment and using it as a crutch is foolish.

 

Right on the money!

[FlyBoyd]

Okay I just found this: https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/2017/06/23/how-did-a-30-year-old-su-22-defeat-a-modern-aim-9x/

I didn't realise the AIM-9X had been fired in anger yet.

 

Thanks for finding that! Sorry I totally misspoke, I thought it was a F-15 and a 23. I hadn't seen the video in a few months and remembered the wings were swept out which made me think of the 23.

 

Hopefully they will release the video soon! Definitely something to watch and learn from.

[Blaze1]

Thanks for finding that! Sorry I totally misspoke, I thought it was a F-15 and a 23. I hadn't seen the video in a few months and remembered the wings were swept out which made me think of the 23.

 

Hopefully they will release the video soon! Definitely something to watch and learn from.

Fingers crossed for that. :)

 

BTW, there are a couple of videos of AIM-9L/M's getting decoyed. One of them features an F/A-18 with its pilot trying to get the seeker to lock-up a B-52, but the 52 is throwing out flares like confetti and the Hornet driver sounds a little p***** that his AIM-9 is going "Ooh, look at all those pretty bright lights!".

 

The second is of a F-15C shooting a -9L/M at a QF-4 drone:

[GGTharos]

The missile was not decoyed; it suffered a failure. Shooters testimony doesn't support defeat if the missile but rather it's failure.

 

If you've seen actual 9X seeker track you'd see that it doesn't care about flares once locked on target.

[26-J39]

I'm confused why the pilot shot the 9X at half a mile, then followed up with a 120?? makes no sense.

[Blaze1]

The missile was not decoyed; it suffered a failure. Shooters testimony doesn't support defeat if the missile but rather it's failure.

 

If you've seen actual 9X seeker track you'd see that it doesn't care about flares once locked on target.

I've seen those (it's been many years granted) as well as a paper which discusses the ineffectiveness of flares against similar seeker technology in 90%+ cases, so it agrees with you.

Comments from the guy who took the shot:

You get the impression that the missile perhaps didn't function as designed, however all he states is that he loses sight of the smoke trail and doesn't know what happened to the missile. There was no mention of the Fitter throwing out flares however.

 

Footage of the shootdown (does really show much):

Edited December 21, 2018 by Blaze1

[GGTharos]

Makes sense to use a different weapon. 120s are quite maneuverable and capable at short ranges, though not quite like a 9X.

[Blaze1]

Nearing the end of the video now and the shooter says both missiles worked:

[GGTharos]

I missed that somehow ... I didn't hear him say that.

[Blaze1]

I missed that somehow ... I didn't hear him say that.

It was pretty easy to miss GGTharos, considering the PC was almost fifty minutes long to describe a very brief engagement :) and the talk was winding down at that point.

[GGTharos]

I listened to it again, still missing it ... where and what did he say? :)