RalfiDude's F-14 Video

[captain_dalan]

... It would not surprise me if the MiG-23MLD was also very capable at WVR and I haven't seen any performance data on it. Have you? It would be interesting to have some numbers to corroborate your claims...

 

 

 

I have. Remember a a while back (maybe it was 2017, bot sure), i had them plotted on the same background? I think it was on one of those 2 F-14 performance threads we had going back then, the attachments should still stand........ Bluntly stated, you don't want to find your self in a WVR engagement if you fly a 23. Period....

[QuiGon]

Sorry I ruffled your knickers. Having been a flight sim enthusiast and developer for more than 30 years, I dont need any help recognizing the significance of HB's accomplishment. It literally goes without saying. That doesnt make it immune from constructive criticism, however. My constructive criticism is:

 

1) Brevity could be improved.

 

2) The tone (angst) apparent in the voice-over feels a bit arcade-like to my ear. A stark contrast to the fidelity and professionalism exhibited by the rest of the product.

 

I dont "expect perfection", nor did I "hammer down" on anyone or anything. I said this particular video didn't do it for me. I also fail to see how a comment like mine could possibly have contributed to an unrealistic expectation regarding a release date...where did that come from?

 

I already bought the Tomcat and I plan on enjoying it, minor flaws and all.

 

Personally, I'd appreciate it if you were a little less hyperbolic when attacking people for not sharing your opinion.

Alright, it was the very negative tone of your comment that got me triggered. I understand what you mean now, after you explained it in a more constructive way. Those are fair points, although I still disagree with them. :)

 

And just to clarify: I didn't say your release date expectations were unrealistic (I haven't said anything about release dates), but I did say, that you expectations regarding Jesters capabilities seem a bit unrealistic.

[Steve Davies]

My constructive criticism is:

 

1) Brevity could be improved.

 

2) The tone (angst) apparent in the voice-over feels a bit arcade-like to my ear. A stark contrast to the fidelity and professionalism exhibited by the rest of the product.

 

I dont "expect perfection", nor did I "hammer down" on anyone or anything. I said this particular video didn't do it for me...

 

 

On the one hand, I love hearing Jester talk in these videos. On the other hand, I hate some of the the things he says and some of the triggers that appear to be activating him!

 

I've commented before about brevity, and HB have responded to say that they've exercised some creative license here.

 

While I kind of understand that, there are some brevity terms that are written in blood and so ingrained as to be immutable: so, where Jester says "Watch your height", or "Shit, shit, shit, shit!", in reality he would instinctively say "Height!" (because one word is better than three when you're pointing at the ground!). I just hope that the balance is more towards the realistic side of the spectrum.

 

As for the voice acting and the tone, I hope that it reflects the phase of the mission. Lighthearted during transitional and administrative phases, and professional during the combat or critical phases of flight. We'll see...

[Top Jockey]

I have. Remember a a while back (maybe it was 2017, bot sure), i had them plotted on the same background? I think it was on one of those 2 F-14 performance threads we had going back then, the attachments should still stand........ Bluntly stated, you don't want to find your self in a WVR engagement if you fly a 23. Period....

 

Hello,

 

Well I understand you, but it also depends of who's your opponent...

 

The MiG-23 (flown by Cuban pilots) in Angola, managed to prove lethal in WVR combat against South Africa's Mirage F1.

 

http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/ArticPiercy2-e.html

 

Interesting read, although the aftermath for the South Africa Air Force pilot involved on that clash had dramatic consequences.

[umkhunto]

MiG-23 MLD can easily take on Eagle, to say nothing of F-14.

 

Hahahaha...

 

104-0 baby.

 

Try again, try harder.

[Xenovia]

Hahahaha...

 

104-0 baby.

 

Try again, try harder.

 

I mean, it doesn't help that the MiG's ran away from the F-14 anyway.

[Cunning_Fox]

RalfiDude's F-14 Video

 

I mean, it doesn't help that the MiG's ran away from the F-14 anyway.

 

 

 

Recon plane does not have any weapons (despite the ones US drew on it later). It does not have orders to engage either.

 

Try again. And actually google stuff before you post nonsensical replies.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cunning_Fox]

I have. Remember a a while back (maybe it was 2017, bot sure), i had them plotted on the same background? I think it was on one of those 2 F-14 performance threads we had going back then, the attachments should still stand........ Bluntly stated, you don't want to find your self in a WVR engagement if you fly a 23. Period....

 

 

 

Yeah, sure. It can outturn the F-14 easily. What you don’t wan is a WVR in F-14, hence the big pointy stick they call Phoenix.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OnlyforDCS]

Yeah, sure. It can outturn the F-14 easily. What you don’t wan is a WVR in F-14, hence the big pointy stick they call Phoenix.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

How about providing some evidence instead of spouting the same stuff in different threads? Either that or quit trolling.

 

Well if you won't I will. Only took me 2 minutes too.

 

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28783

 

NAVAIR chart of the F14. Found on the F16 forums of all places! From the chart we can see that the F14 has a comparable sustained turn rate to the F16, and a MUCH better instantaneous turn rate at lower speeds. Granted this for the F14D, which has the better T/W ratio compared to the B model, but since we are talking about turning in WVR (not climbing or running) you don't really need the big powerplants of the D model at lower speeds.

 

Now please tell me that the Mig23 (any model you want) without providing evidence is an equivalent or better dogfighter than the F16, please oh please, and you will finally out yourself as the troll you probably are.

Edited January 7, 2019 by OnlyforDCS

[Lieuie]

How about providing some evidence instead of spouting the same stuff in different threads? Either that or quit trolling.

 

Well if you won't I will. Only took me 2 minutes too.

 

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28783

 

NAVAIR chart of the F14. Found on the F16 forums of all places! From the chart we can see that the F14 has a comparable sustained turn rate to the F16, and a MUCH better instantaneous turn rate at lower speeds. Granted this for the F14D, which has the better T/W ratio compared to the B model, but since we are talking about turning in WVR (not climbing or running) you don't really need the big powerplants of the D model at lower speeds.

 

Now please tell me that the Mig23 (any model you want) without providing eveidene is an equivalent or better dogfighter than the F16, please oh please, and you will finally out yourself as the troll you probably are.

 

Actually the F-14B has a higher thrust to weight ratio than the D since it has the same engines and is lighter.

[OnlyforDCS]

Actually the F-14B has a higher thrust to weight ratio than the D since it has the same engines and is lighter.

 

Really? Well you learn something new every day. I thought that the F14D was actually the lighter airframe and had better rated engines. Thanks.

[VZ_342]

Quickie Google came up with:

 

MiG-23 page

 

Type: MiG-23MLD 'Flogger-L'

Function: fighter

Crew: 1

Engines: 1 * Khatchaturov R-35-300 afterburning turbojet, 83.6 kN dry, 127 kN afterburning

Wing Span: 13.97 m (spread)

Length: 16.70 m

Height: 4.82m

Wing Area: 37.35 m² (spread); 34.16 m² (swept possition)

Wing loading: 575 kg/m²

Empty Weight: 9595 kg

Max.Weight: 18030 kg

Thrust/weight: 0.88

Speed: Mach 2.35 at altitude, Mach 1.14 at sea level

Rate of climb: 240 m/s

Ceiling: 18500 m

Range: 1150 km with six AAMs combat, 2820 km ferry

Armament: 1 * Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23L 23 mm cannon with 200 rounds, 3000 kg payload

Note : According to the MiG-23ML manual, the MiG-23ML has sustained turn rate of 14.1 deg/sec and a maximum instantaneous turn rate of 16.7 deg/sec. The MiG-23ML accelerates from 600 km/h to 900 km/h in 12 seconds at the altitude of 1000 meters. The MiG-23 accelerates at the altitude of 1 km from the speed of 630 km to 1300 km in just 30 seconds and at the altitude of 10-12 km will accelerate from Mach 1 to Mach 2 in just 160 seconds.

 

Development

 

The MiG-23's predecessor, the MiG-21 (NATO reporting name 'Fishbed'), was fast and agile, but limited in its operational capabilities by its primitive radar, short range, and limited weapons load. The MiG-23 was to be a heavier, more powerful machine designed to remedy these deficiencies, and, it was hoped, rival Western aircraft like the F-4 Phantom. The new fighter was to feature a totally new S-23 sensor and weapon system suite capable of firing beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles.

 

My phone browser isn’t especially good at picking apart a debated point, but it seems the MiG-23 just barely is in the “competitive” range for any US fighter since the F-4.

[Deano87]

Yeah, sure. It can outturn the F-14 easily. What you don’t wan is a WVR in F-14, hence the big pointy stick they call Phoenix.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

You are full on deluded if you think the Mig-23 could out turn an F-14. The Mig-23 does two things well, one is accelerating and the other is going fast once its got there, Thankfully the F-14 is also not bad at that too ;)

 

I say this as somebody who is a fan of the aircraft, In fact I have quite a few Mig-23 parts not 10 feet from where I am writing this now, but it is not a dogfighter, it is an interceptor. The Russians themselves concluded that in a turn fight it was no match for the F-15 and a 1988 USAF report influenced by the findings from "Constant Peg" stated this: "It can generate an instantaneous turn rate of 12 degrees/second with wing sweep at 45 degrees or 11 degrees/second with 72 degrees wing sweep. The MIG-23's high speed, all weather avionics, and all aspect BVR capability make it a good interceptor. A lack of manoeuvrability and a limited lookdown/shootdown capability are to its disadvantage in the air combat arena"

 

Note I underlined and bolded "Instantaneous", This will naturally be higher than the sustained turn rate of the aircraft which will be even lower. Meanwhile the Tomcat (without the later life G-restrictions) will happily see north of 20deg/sec Instantaneous turn rate and a sustained turn rate of around 13deg/sec.

 

The Tomcat (or F-15, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000 etc) will annihilate a Mig-23 in a turning fight, you'd be an absolute fool to try and fly the Mig-23 in that arena, stick to what its good at, Run Away.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Deano87

[Dudikoff]

1988 USAF report influenced by the findings from "Constant Peg" stated this: "It can generate an instantaneous turn rate of 12 degrees/second with wing sweep at 45 degrees or 11 degrees/second with 72 degrees wing sweep. The MIG-23's high speed, all weather avionics, and all aspect BVR capability make it a good interceptor. A lack of manoeuvrability and a limited lookdown/shootdown capability are to its disadvantage in the air combat arena"

 

It should be mentioned that Constant Peg (at that time, at least) didn't have a MiG-23ML variant which was lighter with a stronger engine and thus somewhat more maneuverable than the older MS/MF export models which they tested presumably.

 

Plus, the MLD variant introduced some extra changes to improve maneuvering capabilities and controllability at higher AoA (vortex generators, a new stronger wingbox and a 33 degree wing-sweep position, flight control limiter, etc.).

 

So, those turn rate numbers were presumably somewhat increased, but I don't have any numbers at hand apart from those provided by a quick google search and already posted for the ML and this analysis of a Soviet era document.

 

http://www.xairforces.net/analyses/mig-23.html

Edited January 8, 2019 by Dudikoff

[captain_dalan]

Hello,

 

Well I understand you, but it also depends of who's your opponent...

 

The MiG-23 (flown by Cuban pilots) in Angola, managed to prove lethal in WVR combat against South Africa's Mirage F1.

 

http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/ArticPiercy2-e.html

 

Interesting read, although the aftermath for the South Africa Air Force pilot involved on that clash had dramatic consequences.

 

True that, but you also wouldn't want to find your self in a WVR engagement in the F1 as well. I guess i should have provided more context :thumbup:

 

Within the broader subject, i find the 23 to be in the GENERAL ball park with the F1, F-104 and the somewhat the early non slatted F-4's. :pilotfly:

 

 

It should be mentioned that Constant Peg (at that time, at least) didn't have a MiG-23ML variant which was lighter with a stronger engine and thus somewhat more maneuverable than the older MS/MF export models which they tested presumably.

 

Plus, the MLD variant introduced some extra changes to improve maneuvering capabilities and controllability at higher AoA (vortex generators, a new stronger wingbox and a 33 degree wing-sweep position, flight control limiter, etc.).

 

It made some improvements, yes, but the effect of those was turning a death trap coffin into a not so death trap coffin. The end result is still inferior (BFM wise) then the say, the 21.

Edited January 9, 2019 by captain_dalan

[Top Jockey]

True that, but you also wouldn't want to find your self in a WVR engagement in the F1 as well. I guess i should have provided more context :thumbup:

 

Within the broader subject, i find the 23 to be in the GENERAL ball park with the F1, F-104 and the somewhat the early non slatted F-4's. :pilotfly:

 

Actually I thought the Mirage F1 would be somewhat reasonable in maneuvering, as after all one of its production requirements was to solve the previous Mirage III delta wing design disadvantages (i.e. high loss of speed when sharp turning).

 

When I first saw the F1 airframe for the first time I recall thinking: this is the most similar airframe to an F-16 I've ever seen.

 

It made some improvements, yes, but the effect of those was turning a death trap coffin into a not so death trap coffin. The end result is still inferior (BFM wise) then the say, the 21.

 

So you believe a MiG-21 airframe can outmaneuver a MiG-23 ?

[captain_dalan]

Actually I thought the Mirage F1 would be somewhat reasonable in maneuvering, as after all one of its production requirements was to solve the previous Mirage III delta wing design disadvantages (i.e. high loss of speed when sharp turning).

 

Check out their level flight envelopes (i apologize for the rough sketch, i did it in a hurry) and tell me that they aren't looking extremely similar, at least in the altitudes one is expected to dogfight. It's true, this is only the edge of the 1g envelope, so we don't have the excess power for each plane, but it gives a rough idea about what the general kinetics of these craft are.

 

So you believe a MiG-21 airframe can outmaneuver a MiG-23 ?

 

The second picture is a comparison of F-14A to MiG-23MLA at 1000m - 3000ft. I'm sure i had an F-5 E-M chart somewhere on my HDD's. I'll try to find it later on and lay it over this

[Tinkickef]

Don't feed the troll......

 

He has already been fed so many pies he has grease running down his chin and onto his cardigan.

 

I think Jester is pretty impressive. In my case he will need a good repertoire of swear words as I keep trying to kill him.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Tinkickef

[Top Jockey]

Check out their level flight envelopes (i apologize for the rough sketch, i did it in a hurry) and tell me that they aren't looking extremely similar, at least in the altitudes one is expected to dogfight. It's true, this is only the edge of the 1g envelope, so we don't have the excess power for each plane, but it gives a rough idea about what the general kinetics of these craft are.

 

 

 

The second picture is a comparison of F-14A to MiG-23MLA at 1000m - 3000ft. I'm sure i had an F-5 E-M chart somewhere on my HDD's. I'll try to find it later on and lay it over this

 

Hello captain dalan,

 

Thank you for your time, you shouldn't have bothered!

Very good info by the way.

 

Yeah, although off-topic, I was merely comparing MiG-23 vs Mirage F1 in WVR combat.

 

I have no doubt the MiG-23 would be outmaneuvered against the F-14 - tried to tell that to @Cunning_Fox, and that's his debate.

[captain_dalan]

Don't feed the troll......

 

Nah, Top Jockey is all right, he's just curious and that's always a good thing! :thumbup:

Or are you referring to that other guy?

Hello captain dalan,

 

Thank you for your time, you shouldn't have bothered!

Very good info by the way.

 

Yeah, although off-topic, I was merely comparing MiG-23 vs Mirage F1 in WVR combat.

 

Not a problem mate, i have learned so much from this community, the least i can do is give something back to it. Yeah, as i said, the F1 and the 23 are very similar in their performance. My guess is, the MiGs got the best out of the F1's through their superior weapons systems, avionics, training or some combination of the above.

 

So you believe a MiG-21 airframe can outmaneuver a MiG-23 ?

 

It should. At least as far as WVR fighting is at stake. Here's that other table.

As we can see, their STR is fairly similar (with the MiG holding the advantage in high subsonic to trans sonic - swept wings), but the F-5 (and thus the 21 by extension) can move its nose far better all around.:thumbup:

[HWasp]

Reading this debate I have come up with the idea of a nice Tomcat Challenge (for 2024 maybe...)

 

 

1. Take a flight of 2 F-14As, fully armed, with good crews.

2. Estimate the cost in USD for the year the simulation would take place (198x) for the Tomcats (just for the planes, no need to overcomplicate)

3. Estimate the number of Mig-23MLAs, you could buy using the same amount of money. (8? 10? 12?)

4. Let them fight! :)

 

 

This should be in multiplayer of course.

[captain_dalan]

Reading this debate I have come up with the idea of a nice Tomcat Challenge (for 2024 maybe...)

 

 

1. Take a flight of 2 F-14As, fully armed, with good crews.

2. Estimate the cost in USD for the year the simulation would take place (198x) for the Tomcats (just for the planes, no need to overcomplicate)

3. Estimate the number of Mig-23MLAs, you could buy using the same amount of money. (8? 10? 12?)

4. Let them fight! :)

 

 

This should be in multiplayer of course.

 

Not a bad idea. But the real trick is to estimate how much of a cost would those 23's represent for the side employing them :thumbup:

As in, the ratio of dollar per (insert operating country currency) and/or the percentage of that amount in the country's GDP or GNP.

 

EDIT: to clarify, just maybe, not only could the US afford more 14's then the other side 23's, but 23's made in the US would be more expensive then if made abroad.

Edited January 13, 2019 by captain_dalan

[Top Jockey]

Reading this debate I have come up with the idea of a nice Tomcat Challenge (for 2024 maybe...)

 

 

1. Take a flight of 2 F-14As, fully armed, with good crews.

2. Estimate the cost in USD for the year the simulation would take place (198x) for the Tomcats (just for the planes, no need to overcomplicate)

3. Estimate the number of Mig-23MLAs, you could buy using the same amount of money. (8? 10? 12?)

4. Let them fight! :)

 

 

This should be in multiplayer of course.

 

Not a bad idea. But the real trick is to estimate how much of a cost would those 23's represent for the side employing them :thumbup:

As in, the ratio of dollar per (insert operating country currency) and/or the percentage of that amount in the country's GDP or GNP.

 

EDIT: to clarify, just maybe, not only could the US afford more 14's then the other side 23's, but 23's made in the US would be more expensive then if made abroad.

 

Very interesting points from both of you.

 

But for the sake of my curiosity let's say, in 1989 (the time of the 2nd. Gulf of Sidra Incident):

 

Roughly how many MiG-23s (I don't recall the specific version), would Kadhafi be able to buy with the amount of US dollars, equivalent to the cost of 2 F-14s ?

Edited January 13, 2019 by Top Jockey

[shagrat]

Very interesting points from both of you.

 

But for the sake of my curiosity let's say, in 1989 (the time of the 2nd. Gulf of Sidra Incident):

 

How many MiG-23 (I don't recall the specific version), would Kadhafi be able to buy with the amount of US dollars equivalent to the cost of 2 F-14s ?

I would add another aspect: let's say we get a 1 F-14 to 4 MiG-23 ratio. How many pilots in a Flight of 4 MiG will turn around and flee, after 2 or 3 of their wingmen have been taken out during BVR? It requires quite a nerve to keep your cool, knowing full well you only favor the odds by numbers. Effectively you know your chance of surviving is 1 out of 4?

[Top Jockey]

I would add another aspect: let's say we get a 1 F-14 to 4 MiG-23 ratio. How many pilots in a Flight of 4 MiG will turn around and flee, after 2 or 3 of their wingmen have been taken out during BVR? It requires quite a nerve to keep your cool, knowing full well you only favor the odds by numbers. Effectively you know your chance of surviving is 1 out of 4?

 

Yes, that's an interesting aspect right there - the psychological factor.

 

Me however, would be more curious to know how the F-14 would fare against a considerably bigger number of MIG-23s.