How should i use rudder in combat?

[Larkis]

Maybe its a noob question but i just dont get it.

 

 

Thats the Situation: Im on the 6 of an enemy F5. The F5 now make a sharp turn to the left. I want to follow him and shoot him down.

 

 

So how should i do it?

 

 

That was my test results:

 

 

1. Go on 90° and pitch without rudder (like in F18), i bleed a lot airspeed and strt to stall. But my turn is not sharp enough to follow the F5.

 

 

2. Do 45° roll and go full left rudder: Airplane start to roll on it own, try tu turn into a 90°and into the ground. Bleed a lot airspeed and end in a stall which i cant recover from (Me trying to recover from stall: Airplane rotate to the left, i go right engine on idle and left engine to full power, trying to counter trust. Put rudder in both directions max, northing worked)

 

 

3. Do a 45° roll and go 50° left rudder. Plane turns stable but feel similar to 1. Turn not sharp enough and bleed a lot airspeed.

 

 

 

4:Do a 45 roll and putt weight on right rudder: just chaos.

 

 

So at the end, every way i tried endet with a cresh cause of stall or loosing the target.

 

 

So 2 questions for me.

 

 

1. Is the Tomcat a dogfight capble plane which could make sharp turns and outmaneuver the enemy like for example the hornet? Or is it more a long range delivery weapon for bombs and phonix missle but not usable in dogfights like (höhö) Top Gun?

 

 

2. How shouldi use the rudder in the right way? And please dont post the usual 30 minute videos or give me a timestamp where to look. i need ananswer to that specific questions, how to use rudder the air on the F14 Tomcat?

[VampireNZ]

From the sounds of it you need to stop pulling the control stick into your belly in every 'option', this aircraft is NOT fly-by-wire! Go to external view and watch the tail when you crank the stick full back and tell me that is a good thing to do while trying to efficiently dogfight/follow a bandit..

 

I can assure you it is possible to roll 90 degrees and pull without 'stalling'. Just look at pretty much any vid on YT to get some idea.

 

Short answer, more AOA = more rudder to roll. Use the aircraft 'buffet' to take note of what it is doing.

[TLTeo]

The Tomcat is most definitely capable of dogfighting anything if handled correctly, which it sounds like you are not. Unfortunately the simple answer to your questions is just "fly better". The appropriate, long answer that you should definitely read if you are serious about learning how to fight in the F14 is this post https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=232264

[Larkis]

From the sounds of it you need to stop pulling the control stick into your belly in every 'option', this aircraft is NOT fly-by-wire! Go to external view and watch the tail when you crank the stick full back and tell me that is a good thing to do while trying to efficiently dogfight/follow a bandit..

 

I can assure you it is possible to roll 90 degrees and pull without 'stalling'. Just look at pretty much any vid on YT to get some idea.

 

Short answer, more AOA = more rudder to roll. Use the aircraft 'buffet' to take note of what it is doing.

 

Im sorry if i sound mad, but im highligh frustratet with this.

 

I spend a lot looking on videos like that:

 

 

I see the tomcat is able to do is. But without axis visible and since he never look on the controls and just cant see how it should work.

And sorry but i just dont understand you with all that tags. I dont now what a buffet is, i dont think you mean the buffet in the hotel on vacation.

 

So just give me an example.

 

I want to do a sharp turn to the left. I have 4 axis, pitch, roll, throttle and rudder which i could add from 0-100%.

How should i place the axis to get a sharp turn without stalling?

 

And sorry am not person which could adapt a lot just from reading text, i am more visual, i need to see it!

Edited April 9, 2019 by Larkis

[VampireNZ]

...

I dont now what a buffet is, i dont think you mean the buffet in the hotel on vacation.

 

I want to do a sharp turn to the left. I have 4 axis, pitch, roll, throttle and rudder which i could add from 0-100%.

How should i place the axis to get a sharp turn without stalling?

 

And sorry am not person which could adapt a lot just from reading text, i am more visual, i need to see it!

 

Good guess with buffet... You clearly spent 0 seconds investigating using the internet what buffet means in relation to aerodynamics - suggest you do. Short answer..aircraft shakes a lot and makes noise = buffet.

 

There is no one answer for your specific question - it depends on lots of variables.

 

Just get in the aircraft and try many things! You say what you do now means aircraft stalls - so that does not work, try something else. It takes mere seconds to trial different controls techniques - figure out what works.

Only pull the stick in a turn till the aircraft shakes and makes noise, then work from there. Less and you don't turn fast enough - more and you slow and stall as you say. Eventually you will be going too fast and your pull will be G-limited so you black-out, instead of buffet. This all changes with every turn due to speed, altitude, AOA etc, so be flexible and 'feel' the aircraft.

 

 

Read the pdf file on the post linked above - dude knows what he is talking about.

[Deano87]

Step 1: Find AOA gauge: Hint: It's the left hand side of the panel just below the HUD.

 

Step 2: Pull until you see between 15 and 17 on that indicator, once you get that much. Stop pulling.

 

Step 3: Practice until you get good.

[Los]

You should watch this film The Art of the Kill:

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by Los

[pimp]

I understand the OP's frustration with this. I too don't understand when or how to use the rudder, specifically in dogfights. A lot of these videos never show the control display or explain how they're using the rudders. I get how the buffet and AOA relate to each other, but I know I'm doing something wrong. I just don't know what it is. I try to fly it like it's not a FBW jet but I struggle against Su-24's.

[BSS_Sniper]

Just use the rudder to keep the ball centered. No need to get so deep into the weeds.

[vadupleix]

If lateral stick doesn’t work or doesn’t respond as quickly as you wish (and yeah there’s adverse yaw but that’s under extreme AoA which you probably shouldn’t be there in the first place), add rudder. Just as people mentioned above, more AoA/more shakeing = rudder dominates more.

 

You asked about how to make sharp turns? You don’t make sharp turns, instead you keep your AoA at around 15 (and keep your airspeed at around 300-320, if your are too fast, go vertical) when turning and control your urge to pull hard and make that shoot. Practice this for some time until you have some confidence to down the enemy. Then you can try to pull harder when you felt necessary, see how it goes. Basically push the aircraft toward its envelope one bit a time until you can read what the aircraft is telling you and how far you can go safely in each situation.

 

It’s not easy and I’m still learning just as you do, but you will get it eventually, this aircraft really feels alive.

[Larkis]

Good guess with buffet... You clearly spent 0 seconds investigating using the internet what buffet means in relation to aerodynamics - suggest you do. Short answer..aircraft shakes a lot and makes noise = buffet.

 

There is no one answer for your specific question - it depends on lots of variables.

 

Just get in the aircraft and try many things! You say what you do now means aircraft stalls - so that does not work, try something else. It takes mere seconds to trial different controls techniques - figure out what works.

Only pull the stick in a turn till the aircraft shakes and makes noise, then work from there. Less and you don't turn fast enough - more and you slow and stall as you say. Eventually you will be going too fast and your pull will be G-limited so you black-out, instead of buffet. This all changes with every turn due to speed, altitude, AOA etc, so be flexible and 'feel' the aircraft.

 

 

Read the pdf file on the post linked above - dude knows what he is talking about.

 

Sorry it was late for me yesterday. :/

 

I read that linked pdf but sadly it just dont helped. As i said i need some more practice approach. See it one time going right, see how he do it and approach from thet. Or just get some values to handle with. Trial and error clearly dont help here.

[VampireNZ]

Just use the rudder to keep the ball centered. No need to get so deep into the weeds.

 

Unfortunately he was asking about BFM, not flying around the pattern. By all means step on the ball at your 20 degrees angle of bank on the crosswind turn.

 

In the F-14 it is critical to use the rudders to roll when pushing high AOA and you are after the best roll rate. Even with not so high AOA a bit of rudder along with stick can actually whip it over from 90 to 90 pretty quick.

But if you want to dogfight just using the stick - by all means. Will be lame as all hell, but hey :thumbup:

[Larkis]

So i know thats bad when the aircraft shaken and i know the borders where to go with stick only. I can air to air refuel the tomcat, i can land the tomcat on the carrier i can do a lot with it but i dont get used to the rudder.

 

Comming from the F18 i can fly the Cat Stick only and with a looot trimm (i love it :D) but trying the rudder just add an instability element i dont get under control.

 

So ok lets try a different approach. How muche you move the rudder? For example the gazelle, you have a 100% Axis on pitch and roll but using more than maybe 10% is suicide. So how much preassure you put on the rudder? Are you going the whole 100% or just a fingertip? And do you constant preassure or more like the dlc, bump it, let it go, repeat?

[probad]

ok heres how it works

 

=> does roll input roll the airplane?

 

=====>yes

===========> do not use rudder

 

=====>no

===========> add rudder

 

you only need as much rudder as it takes to roll you in the direction you want to roll

[Larkis]

ok heres how it works

 

=> does roll input roll the airplane?

 

=====>yes

===========> do not use rudder

 

=====>no

===========> add rudder

 

you only need as much rudder as it takes to roll you in the direction you want to roll

 

 

Ok so rudder dont turn the maschine faster it just help roll it. When im low speed with wings extended i use the roll-axis like flying a hornet. When i fly fast and wings are more fold in, i use rudder to roll insteat of the roll axis. But both is just to roll the plane. When im on the right angle ( let say 30) i stop using rudder (or roll axis) and only work with pitch?

 

That would make sense to my. And cause i tried rudder + roll together all the time the plane got instable every time. I just fight myself all the time.

 

When i (hopefully) understand correct, your answer was really helpfull. :D

[vadupleix]

So i know thats bad when the aircraft shaken and i know the borders where to go with stick only. I can air to air refuel the tomcat, i can land the tomcat on the carrier i can do a lot with it but i dont get used to the rudder.

 

Comming from the F18 i can fly the Cat Stick only and with a looot trimm (i love it :D) but trying the rudder just add an instability element i dont get under control.

 

So ok lets try a different approach. How muche you move the rudder? For example the gazelle, you have a 100% Axis on pitch and roll but using more than maybe 10% is suicide. So how much preassure you put on the rudder? Are you going the whole 100% or just a fingertip? And do you constant preassure or more like the dlc, bump it, let it go, repeat?

 

I kick the rudder at about 20% (the number is merely guts feeling) under 15-20 units of AoA, when the nose moves, relax the rudder a bit to let’s say, 10% and hold it there. Release it when you are about to end the roll.

That’s what I do at least and you are welcomed to try it out.

 

Edit: All I was talking about is to start and keep the roll under medium-medium high AoA. While if all you want is to turn after you have established your bank, very little rudder is needed and it is needed to center the ball to keep your turn efficient.

Say you are at 45 set of right bank, you pull the stick and notice that the nose wants to go up/plane wants to roll left, see where the ball is? You kick in a little right rudder and now the nose can point front, see where the ball is now? Try at different airspeed/AoA and see how to judge the necessary rudder input. Then there’s case where you are in right turn and nose wants to drop, plane wants to roll right, see where the ball is right now?

Edited April 10, 2019 by vadupleix

[Larkis]

I kick the rudder at about 20% (the number is merely guts feeling) under 15-20 units of AoA, when the nose moves, relax the rudder a bit to let’s say, 10% and hold it there. Release it when you are about to end the roll.

That’s what I do at least and you are welcomed to try it out.

 

 

Thank you, that is really helpful. :D

[Rhinozherous]

I paste a link to a Video. The topic on this video is about the rudder panels, but it also is a nice visual explaination how to use the rudders. I learned a lot from it.

 

[Larkis]

I paste a link to a Video. The topic on this video is about the rudder panels, but it also is a nice visual explaination how to use the rudders. I learned a lot from it.

 

 

Thanks for that! Exactly what um looking for!

[lancerr]

Thanks. Super helpful. Just got thrustmaster rudders and felt like I was flying worse with rudder than without.

[probad]

Ok so rudder dont turn the maschine faster it just help roll it. When im low speed with wings extended i use the roll-axis like flying a hornet. When i fly fast and wings are more fold in, i use rudder to roll insteat of the roll axis.

no for all 'normal flight' you do not need rudder inputs

the only time you lose roll authority from the stick is in high aoa regime. you will not encounter high aoa at high speed (if you do you will have bigger problems than roll authority)

all modern fighters including the f-14 will automatically do coordinated turn, there is no need to input rudder into normal turns like you need to with older, simpler aircraft

 

just simply do not touch rudder until your plane does not obey stick commanded roll

 

maybe this will help you think about it correctly:

this is highly exaggerated but when your alpha increases your roll axis no longer rolls relative to your path of travel

instead, your aircraft's yaw axis comes closer to your path's roll axis

Edited April 10, 2019 by probad

[stuart666]

I was reading a good book on the early Topgun the other day, and they found that with the F4 phantom that at high angles of attack it was a good idea to roll with the rudder. Ive tried that in the F14 flight model, and it does work for minor adjustments. It seems to me if you are pulling g's trying to pull lead on someone, adjust with the rudder. If you have a greater adjustment to be made then use, use the aileron as well, but it doesnt seem to be a great idea for minor adjustments. I guess because the spoilers are acting as speedbrakes and are actually reducing your speed, which gets critical as you get nearer to a stall. Food for thought, or am I talking nonsense?

[Larkis]

no for all 'normal flight' you do not need rudder inputs

the only time you lose roll authority from the stick is in high aoa regime. you will not encounter high aoa at high speed (if you do you will have bigger problems than roll authority)

all modern fighters including the f-14 will automatically do coordinated turn, there is no need to input rudder into normal turns like you need to with older, simpler aircraft

 

just simply do not touch rudder until your plane does not obey stick commanded roll

 

maybe this will help you think about it correctly:

this is highly exaggerated but when your alpha increases your roll axis no longer rolls relative to your path of travel

instead, your aircraft's yaw axis comes closer to your path's roll axis

 

 

Thanks for that image. :)

[AngryMustang]

There is a turn coordinator on the aircraft, what you need to do is step on the ball until it is centered. If it is not centered it means not enough rudder, if it goes the other way out of center it means too much rudder

[sLYFa]

all modern fighters including the f-14 will automatically do coordinated turn, there is no need to input rudder into normal turns like you need to with older, simpler aircraft

 

This is not true for the F-14 without DFCS/ARI. You do very much need to use rudder at low airspeeds. Therefore, you need some rudder into the turn to keep the ball centered (not the meatball, the slip-ball below the turn needle).