AIM-54C is the same as AIM-120？

[EcceHomo]

hi：guys

Some papers have described the difference between the two missiles in midcourse guidance, but the production team seems to think that AIM-54 and AIM-120 are the same?

google：“the performance study of two midcourse guidance approaches”

 

thx

[cercata]

the production team seems to think that AIM-54 and AIM-120 are the same?

How do you know that ?

[kievbsm]

He knows nothing.:doh:

He is important to say about some garbage and all.

Prove nothing. The main thing that the development team justified.

But he is a "hero"! Caught them on the machinations.:megalol:

Another pseudo-expert.:music_whistling:

[AH_Solid_Snake]

It's not really clear what you're asking here, and I couldn't find a specific paper after doing a google search. Can you provide a direct link to a reference for this?

 

In general terms midcourse guidance and proportional guidance and so forth are fairly general terms and while we might find similarities in approaches (there are only so many ways to skin a cat given many constraints) the two missiles are broadly similar but in detail quite different.

[EcceHomo]

It's not really clear what you're asking here, and I couldn't find a specific paper after doing a google search. Can you provide a direct link to a reference for this?

 

In general terms midcourse guidance and proportional guidance and so forth are fairly general terms and while we might find similarities in approaches (there are only so many ways to skin a cat given many constraints) the two missiles are broadly similar but in detail quite different.

 

Difference between semiactive midcourse guidance and inertial midcourse guidance。

 

https://wenku.baidu.com/view/1512a5e21ed9ad51f01df2ac.html

ABSTRACT At present, midcourse guidance technology used includes semiactive midcourse guidance and Inertial midcourse guidance. This paper introduces devolopment of typical compound guidance air -air missiles and their approach of midcourse guidance. From application angle, both midcourse guidance approaches are analysed, stud-ied and compared in detail. Finely, effects of missiles using these midcoures guidance technologies on the airplane and fire control system discussed

[EcceHomo]

How do you know that ?

 

Set up a task that allows the target to fly straight without any defense against you. It's very simple. After you're ready to launch the AIM-54 properly, launch the missile and turn off the radar. The AIM-54 will hit the target as well as the AIM-120. According to the manual, this is impossible. But that's what happens, and that's why.

[QuiGon]

If the Phoenix looses guidance from the launch plattform it will continue on its own, just like the AMRAAM. If the targets keeps flying straight and level then the missile will pick it up with its own seeker sooner or later. What's wrong with that?

[EcceHomo]

If the Phoenix looses guidance from the launch plattform it will continue on its own, just like the AMRAAM. If the targets keeps flying straight and level then the missile will pick it up with its own seeker sooner or later. What's wrong with that?

 

Because semi-active midcourse guidance requires radar echoes, if the radar stops working, the missile will not be able to guide. If AIM-54C uses the same inertial guidance as AIM-120, it is possible. Because the missile remembers the direction and movement of the target before launching.

 

I'm not sure whether AIM-54C uses the same inertial guidance as AIM-120. If AIM-54C does not use inertia + command guidance, then the AIM-54C in the game now has errors.

[Vatikus]

I have tested this and also made it so that target a/c made a hard turn at launch... I've turned the radar off... missile did not correct itself until going active.

If we look at the HB manual:

"[...]when the missile is within range of its seeker’s ARH mode the AN/AWG-9 commands the missile to switch to ARH. Absence of this command via the AN/AWG-9 radar means that the missile won’t switch to the ARH mode."

This indicates we have a bug!

 

The next question. In another try, I've lunched aim54, this time to support it with radar all the way. However as target made a hard turn, my selected TWS track has dropped, and then after the turn was complete I received another TWS track and did not select it but aim54 kept smooth tracking as if midcourse updates to the target were not interrupted at all. What should happen in this situation is not clear from HB manual. Any takes?

[shagrat]

Referring to the title, no, totally different Missiles. Different size, different warhead, different radar system. Not comparable.

AIM-54 is an active seeker (Fox3) can be launched mad dog (seeker active right from the rail, like the AIM-120), but it has different thrust to weight, drag etc.

Still it can of course switch on it's seeker when loosing intial guidance, as well, as it could launch with the seeker active right from the rail... only its motor burns longer, it's faster and thus should have more energy than the AIM-120C when fired with active seeker.

At least it should do this from what I've read about the Phoenix. :dunno:

hi：guys

Some papers have described the difference between the two missiles in midcourse guidance, but the production team seems to think that AIM-54 and AIM-120 are the same?

google：“the performance study of two midcourse guidance approaches”

 

thx

[EcceHomo]

I have tested this and also made it so that target a/c made a hard turn at launch... I've turned the radar off... missile did not correct itself until going active.

If we look at the HB manual:

"[...]when the missile is within range of its seeker’s ARH mode the AN/AWG-9 commands the missile to switch to ARH. Absence of this command via the AN/AWG-9 radar means that the missile won’t switch to the ARH mode."

This indicates we have a bug!

 

The next question. In another try, I've lunched aim54, this time to support it with radar all the way. However as target made a hard turn, my selected TWS track has dropped, and then after the turn was complete I received another TWS track and did not select it but aim54 kept smooth tracking as if midcourse updates to the target were not interrupted at all. What should happen in this situation is not clear from HB manual. Any takes?

 

The target cannot turn because the guidance in inertia cannot know the change in the target motion. The point is whether the AIM-54C uses inertia+command guidance. If used, the AIM-54C and AIM-54A are very different, but HB does not seem to be mentioned in the manual.

[MRaza]

AFAIK, the Phoenix must be commanded to go active by the f14 radar. If the lock is broken mid course the phoenix will go ballistic and will not turn on its own radar to continue tracking.

 

Unlike the aim120 which will steer itself to the last position your radar gave it steering commands to

[MRaza]

And it appears from my limited testing that this is not the case in DCS, the phoenix goes active even when i break lock mid guidance.

 

can heatblur comment on this? i may just not understand how the phoenix works

[MRaza]

From the f-14 manual:

 

"Then when the missile is within range of its seeker’s ARH mode the AN/AWG-9 commands the missile to switch to ARH.

 

Absence of this command via the AN/AWG-9 radar means that the missile won’t switch to the ARH mode. The AN/AWG-9, however, continues to transmit guidance commands to the missile as a fallback in case the missile can’t acquire the target autonomously. This means that the AIM-54 isn’t a “fire and forget” missile per se but it can be considered autonomous after transfer to ARH"

[jojo]

From the f-14 manual:

 

"Then when the missile is within range of its seeker’s ARH mode the AN/AWG-9 commands the missile to switch to ARH.

 

Absence of this command via the AN/AWG-9 radar means that the missile won’t switch to the ARH mode. The AN/AWG-9, however, continues to transmit guidance commands to the missile as a fallback in case the missile can’t acquire the target autonomously. This means that the AIM-54 isn’t a “fire and forget” missile per se but it can be considered autonomous after transfer to ARH"

 

Indeed, AIM-54 currently behaves as AIM-120 and can go active on its own, unlike what is written in the manual.

 

I already asked the question some weeks ago, and one of HB guys confirmed it's WIP and not available yet. No big secret, but a difference between how it should be (which is described in the manual) and how it's in game.

 

We have to understand that this specific feature of AWG-9 - AIM-54 combo is different from what was available.

So HB needs to team up with ED to make this to work.

 

[Edit]: See Naqaii answer here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=237174&page=2

Edited April 11, 2019 by jojo

[EcceHomo]

Indeed, AIM-54 currently behaves as AIM-120 and can go active on its own, unlike what is written in the manual.

 

I already asked the question some weeks ago, and one of HB guys confirmed it's WIP and not available yet. No big secret, but a difference between how it should be (which is described in the manual) and how it's in game.

 

We have to understand that this specific feature of AWG-9 - AIM-54 combo is different from what was available.

So HB needs to team up with ED to make this to work.

 

[Edit]: See Naqaii answer here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=237174&page=2

 

That's right, but I'm not talking about the situation in the game. I mean whether AIM-54C in reality uses command+inertial midcourse guidance similar to AIM-120. It was found in the DOD financial year report that AIM-54C was tested for command+inertial midcourse guidance. I hope HB will respond positively to this question. Is there any difference between AIM-54C and AIM-54A (semi-active data sampling) in midcourse guidance?

[EcceHomo]

From the f-14 manual:

 

"Then when the missile is within range of its seeker’s ARH mode the AN/AWG-9 commands the missile to switch to ARH.

 

Absence of this command via the AN/AWG-9 radar means that the missile won’t switch to the ARH mode. The AN/AWG-9, however, continues to transmit guidance commands to the missile as a fallback in case the missile can’t acquire the target autonomously. This means that the AIM-54 isn’t a “fire and forget” missile per se but it can be considered autonomous after transfer to ARH"

 

Because LTE was not received

[shagrat]

Ah okay, that explains a lot. So basically we launch AIM-54 that go active immediately at the moment?

Indeed, AIM-54 currently behaves as AIM-120 and can go active on its own, unlike what is written in the manual.

 

I already asked the question some weeks ago, and one of HB guys confirmed it's WIP and not available yet. No big secret, but a difference between how it should be (which is described in the manual) and how it's in game.

 

We have to understand that this specific feature of AWG-9 - AIM-54 combo is different from what was available.

So HB needs to team up with ED to make this to work.

 

[Edit]: See Naqaii answer here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=237174&page=2

[MRaza]

Ah okay, that explains a lot. So basically we launch AIM-54 that go active immediately at the moment?

 

No, at the moment it will continue to track the target even if u break lock before pitbull

[QuiGon]

No, at the moment it will continue to track the target even if u break lock before pitbull

It does that IRL as well, doesn't it? If you command the AWG-9 to break the lock before the missile is in pitbul range, the radar will send the go active command to the Phoenix. That's what I thought at least?

[Whisper]

It does that IRL as well, doesn't it? If you command the AWG-9 to break the lock before the missile is in pitbul range, the radar will send the go active command to the Phoenix. That's what I thought at least?

 

Beware, you talk about "break the lock". Which implies that you are talking about a launch in STT.

The behavior described by Jojo is true for launch made in TWS mode, not STT.

 

So, 2 cases to consider relative to your question :

1) You launched in TWS. You lose track of target before the active range of the AIM54 seeker, so before sending the command to the missile for it to go active. This is the case described by Jojo. Question : is the command sent anyway? From what I understood of what I read (which is very blurry), I'd say "no". To me, the missile should go ballistic and not go active/pitbull.

2) You launched in STT. In that case, the behavior is different. Manual states : "In pulse doppler STT the AIM-54 uses SARH all the way to the target receiving guidance commands at a greater rate than in TWS and also continous spotlighting of the target because of the STT mode being used. This increases the effective range of the AIM-54 seeker slightly.". To me, being SARH all-the way means that in STT, Phoenix should be basically a Fox1. There's no hint here of a switch to active at any phase of flight.

 

Now, there is this little sentence at the end of the part describing the 3rd way to launch a Phoenix : "If the target is not detected actively by the seeker it will still fall back to SARH until the seeker can acquire on its own like in the two SARH modes.". Which seems to imply both TWS and STT launch modes permit the seeker to acquire target on its own..... Go figure ....

 

I'm really at loss as to what SHOULD BE normal behavior. Many way to interpret things, currently.

[QuiGon]

I was talking about STT launches. I thought, that if the radar looses the STT lock (either by the target fading or by a break lock command from the crew) while the Phoenix is already in the air, then the radar will send a go active signal to the Phoenix as a final command. I don't know if this is actually the case, but that's what I thought would be most logical.

The same should be true for TWS as well actually with the difference, that in TWS mode the AWG-9 can regain control of the Phoenix if the Phoenix can't find it's target after it went active.

[Dudikoff]

I was talking about STT launches. I thought, that if the radar looses the STT lock (either by the target fading or by a break lock command from the crew) while the Phoenix is already in the air, then the radar will send a go active signal to the Phoenix as a final command. I don't know if this is actually the case, but that's what I thought would be most logical.

 

I think it's not the case, the missile would get lost according to what the devs said (there was some earlier discussion on the topic).

 

IMHO, it would not be logical to always simply activate the missile as you have no idea what it will lock on to and e.g. there could be friendlies or neutrals between you and the target.

 

On the other hand, I can see your usecase as well, but then there would have to be some override for that; it shouldn't be the default behavior, IMHO.

 

But, is the datalink even used in the STT mode? I'd expect it's not?

Edited April 12, 2019 by Dudikoff

[QuiGon]

IMHO, it would not be logical to always simply activate the missile as you have no idea what it will lock on to and e.g. there could be friendlies or neutrals between you and the target.

True, good point :thumbup:

 

But, is the datalink even used in the STT mode? I'd expect it's not?

I thought, the data link is only being used in STT mode, as the missile never goes active in that mode?

[MRaza]

I thought that if launched in STT, the Phoenix will still go pitbull like in TWS its just that using STT gives it a bit longer range. This isn't the case then?