Why wont DCS listen to us the customers

[Boris]

I can imagine that this is a feature that might come with "Modern Air Combat" to make it more accessible to the mainstream VR crowd.

 

You'll never be able to beat the realism of the actual haptic experience that a HOTAS provides, so I don't think many DCS players will ever use VR controllers as their primary means of interaction with the sim.

[Fri13]

You'll never be able to beat the realism of the actual haptic experience that a HOTAS provides, so I don't think many DCS players will ever use VR controllers as their primary means of interaction with the sim.

 

I think there is these wrong ideas about the VR controllers.

 

As someone already mentioned, you don't going to use them for controlling the aircraft, other than a WW2 era one really where it is at least possible some manner (go and fly a "VR VTOL") and works very well for many ways.

 

But the primary thing with VR controllers is not to be a console controllers in your hand, that is just a one kind and one step. The primary things will be gloves or even better, hand tracking.

 

And in the future we will first get glove or similar that allows us seamlessly use any other controller like HOTAS, and then just operate the virtual world.

Then later we are going to get the hand tracking, where we don't anymore need gloves, but we can just operate the virtual world. And only limitation is the lack of haptic feedback, that gloves can offer.

 

After experiencing flying a modern aircraft like F/A-18C or KA-50 with Oculus Touch Controllers, you don't go ever back to mouse and HOTAS. It becomes so immersive to operate the aircraft by extending your arm to reach a button, a switch, limited that you can't reach your right side with your left hand but you need to use your right etc.

All that creates huge immersion and understanding how to fly, operate and handle the aircraft.

 

But its current huge limitation is that we need to first grab a controller from the lap / table. We need to twist our hand to switch between left/right click. Once that kind limitation is removed, like alone that left/right click becoming as a button, then it will be even greater experience.

 

So while VR users will not be using hands to operate the virtual aircraft controls (HOTAS), they will definitely be using their hands to operate the virtual cockpit systems and fly with their HOTAS.

[dburne]

I won't give up my physical HOTAS controllers until they pry them out of my cold dead hands.

:joystick:

[Harlikwin]

Is Jim L actually talking about VR controllers or captogloves? I am not sure I understand the reason of the first post.

 

He's talking about using rift controllers to grab the stick and throttle on a cessna sim that does implement it.

 

Its more or less uselss for DCS where you have dozens of integrated switches on a hotas. It works fine for a cessna, but its a joke for a combat aircraft. Thats my .02.

 

And he's whining that they won't implement this feature "he" wants, and mostly no one else does, because he's projecting his desires on the rest of the community.

 

If you want touch interface with your hands in DCS today, you go and get on the list for pointCtr and wait a few months. you can then click switches all you want with your fingers.

[Harlikwin]

 

After experiencing flying a modern aircraft like F/A-18C or KA-50 with Oculus Touch Controllers, you don't go ever back to mouse and HOTAS. It becomes so immersive to operate the aircraft by extending your arm to reach a button, a switch, limited that you can't reach your right side with your left hand but you need to use your right etc.

All that creates huge immersion and understanding how to fly, operate and handle the aircraft.

 

But its current huge limitation is that we need to first grab a controller from the lap / table. We need to twist our hand to switch between left/right click. Once that kind limitation is removed, like alone that left/right click becoming as a button, then it will be even greater experience.

 

Yeah, gonna hafta disagree on that. I trained myself to use the touch controllers, but went back to the mouse. Much easier and intuitive and quicker way to interact with the pit than the touch controllers.

 

As an added bonus I didn't have a phantom hand hanging out in the pit, or didn't have to worry about putting the controller somewhere where I couldn't see it.

[Harlikwin]

I won't give up my physical HOTAS controllers until they pry them out of my cold dead hands.

:joystick:

 

Pretty much this.

 

IMO the "ultimate" DCS VR setup for me will be:

 

Physical HOTAS that matches whatever aircraft I'm using. Plus some sort of haptic glove that I can interact with the pit, coupled to the VR body movments (i.e. I move my hand to the stick, thats where it is, I take it off the stick to flick a switch the arm/hand moves to do that) plus when my hand hits the switch I get some sort of haptic feedback that I'm touching it.

 

In the meantime, capto-glove or point control will have to do.

[Svsmokey]

I won't give up my physical HOTAS controllers until they pry them out of my cold dead hands.

:joystick:

 

:megalol:

[Hippo]

The OP hasn't just made this up, nor is he making unreasonable demands. It was (sort of) promised by ED.

 

 

 

Virtual Reality Update

We see VR as an amazing tool to enjoy DCS World and the future of PC gaming for many. To make DCS World even better, we’ve been working on some great VR improvements that include:

• Optimized VR performance.
  
• Touch control that allows direct finger interaction with cockpit controls.
  
• Touch control to allow the right and left Touch controllers to act as stick and throttle when positioned correctly in the virtual cockpit and holding down the middle-finger button.
  

These will provide a much more immersive VR experience, particularly for those flying warbirds and other aircraft that do not require HOTAS controls.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3706594&postcount=170

 

 

The "optimized VR performance" has not been an overwhelming success thus far, and I can't say that I blame the OP for fearing that the other options will be quietly "forgotten".

Edited July 12, 2019 by Hippo

[BigDuke6ixx]

The OP hasn't just made this up, nor is he making unreasonable demands. It was (sort of) promised by ED.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3706594&postcount=170

 

 

The "optimized VR performance" has not been an overwhelming success thus far, and I can't say that I blame the OP for fearing that the other options will be quietly "forgotten".

 

How can tracking possibly work in a pit with the controllers down low in such positions?

[Harlikwin]

The OP hasn't just made this up, nor is he making unreasonable demands. It was (sort of) promised by ED.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3706594&postcount=170

 

 

The "optimized VR performance" has not been an overwhelming success thus far, and I can't say that I blame the OP for fearing that the other options will be quietly "forgotten".

 

I mean, they've tired to:

 

#1 performance improvement (bugged/not working for most)

#2 Interact with pit using touch controllers (works)

#3 Stick controls (not done yet).

 

So I'd say they are workin on it, and moreover, I'd say the vast majority of VR folks want #1

[BIGNEWY]

VR performance is still being investigated,

 

as I said in my previous post work on VR in DCS continues.

 

We just have to be patient.

[Hippo]

I mean, they've tired to:

#2 Interact with pit using touch controllers (works)

 

An option has existed for some time now but, to my understanding, the post I quoted was promising an improvement. Sorry if I'm wrong about this, but I don't think that anything has been improved with this feature since the post was made. I haven't tried the option myself for a long time, but the last time I did it had a long way to go to be practically useful.

 

I wasn't (and still am not) putting forward a view on the options. I was just trying to provide some balance back in the direction of the OP's grievance (wrt communications from ED).

Edited July 13, 2019 by Hippo

[Hippo]

So I'd say they are workin on it,

VR performance is still being investigated,

as I said in my previous post work on VR in DCS continues.

We just have to be patient.

 

Look, no offence, but who are you? Are you a paid employee of ED? I often see your replies here, and am not ungrateful, but what weight do they carry if you are not?

 

The post I quoted is over seven months old, and (sorry, if I'm wrong about this) there's been no OFFICIAL update since (on the promised controller options).

 

Anyone else posting along the lines of "just be patient", or "I'm sure they're working on it", what is the point? It adds no new information to the discussion.

[3WA]

VR is VERY interesting, but it's still in it's infancy. Unfortunately, currently it's flying without being able to see your joystick or hands. Also, from what I hear, most cockpit readouts are somewhat unreadable.

 

 

Personally, I'm waiting for the version where you stick a data jack into your head.

 

 

 

 

Look, no offence, but who are you? Are you a paid employee of ED? I often see your replies here, and am not ungrateful, but what weight do they carry if you are not?

 

The post I quoted is over seven months old, and (sorry, if I'm wrong about this) there's been no OFFICIAL update since (on the promised controller options).

 

Anyone else posting along the lines of "just be patient", or "I'm sure they're working on it", what is the point? It adds no new information to the discussion.

 

 

Well, I'll tell you. If you REALLY want to talk to a Producer like Chizh, they mostly hang out on the Russian forums. Use a translator like Yandex Translate or Google Translate to write your post in both English and Russian, so everyone can understand what your saying. My experience is the Russian translation doesn't always come out right the first time. So, after you get the translation, erase the English you just wrote, flip it to Russian to English, and stick the Russian translation you got into the box. Now see if the Russian translation makes sense in English. Usually a few words might be off, so get translation of the words you want, and cut and paste into the Russian, until it translates to English correctly. Now, go into the Russian forum, and post your original English question and the correctly translated Russian below it.

 

 

They're pretty good guys. I've found I get a lot more information and feedback in the Russian forums, especially on Russian planes like the Black Shark. Also, a lot faster replies.

 

 

 

I just use site translation on Yandex Translate to read the whole Russian web page translated to English. Just stick the http address into the site box to translate.

Edited July 13, 2019 by 3WA

[hansangb]

VR is VERY interesting, but it's still in it's infancy. Unfortunately, currently it's flying without being able to see your joystick or hands. Also, from what I hear, most cockpit readouts are somewhat unreadable.

 

 

Personally, I'm waiting for the version where you stick a data jack into your head.

--snippage--

 

 

With Pimax5K+ and Reverb, it's no longer the case. I can't speak for the others since I haven't tried it first hand.

[BIGNEWY]

Look, no offence, but who are you? Are you a paid employee of ED? I often see your replies here, and am not ungrateful, but what weight do they carry if you are not?

 

Moderator and tester, for nearly 7 years, as a volunteer.

 

I speak with team members daily, and have access to stuff the public do not see, I try to feedback to you guys without breaking my NDA with eagle dynamics.

 

So make of what I say as you see fit :)

[NineLine]

Moderator and tester, for nearly 7 years, as a volunteer.

 

I speak with team members daily, and have access to stuff the public do not see, I try to feedback to you guys without breaking my NDA with eagle dynamics.

 

So make of what I say as you see fit :)

 

What BN said is correct, its in work, I have seen demos on the virtual controls from internal work, the VR optimizations have been bumpy, there is nothing untrue about that, but we are working on this, when Wags demos stuff to people, inside and outside of DCS, he likes to use VR, VR is important to ED, and we know how important it is to everyone else, but we want to implement this stuff correctly, not just throw it in for the sake of saying it's in.

 

And on BN, you take his word pretty solid.

[NineLine]

With Pimax5K+ and Reverb, it's no longer the case. I can't speak for the others since I haven't tried it first hand.

 

I have the non-plus Samsung, and I can read the instruments just fine as well.

[Wolf8312]

Would never give up my HOTAS and am realistic enough to know that a haptic glove technolgy that has the nimbleness and dexterity to work well in a DCS AC is a few years off yet!

I do think DCS devs deserve credit for listening to the community. They do seem to add things to the sim such as jetseat and VR support -with ongoing and patently obvious efforts to improve it- which suggest to me that they do so not only for their customers, but because they too, are aiming to create a combat simulation as close to the real thing as possible.

Just landed my spit. When I am in that thing with VR, and a jetseat, I can't really convey to you all how convincing and wonderful it feels, what a truly beautiful thing it is to be able to fly it.

DCS/VR is not perfection just yet but its pretty damned close! Without any intention of being a crawling kiss ass here, I am truly and honestly very grateful to the DCS developers for having included VR (and jetseat) support, and their constant efforts to improve it, something they were under no obligation whatsoever to do, and something that they must feel is more trouble than it is worth sometimes!

But again I'm sure they do so because they want VR as much as we do, believe wholeheartedly that it is the future of flight simulation, and therefore are making every effort to perfect it, to the extent that we all hope and want it to be perfected.

Besides if it was perfect now, we'd have nothing left to look forward to! :)

[Svsmokey]

Would never give up my HOTAS and am realistic enough to know that a haptic glove technolgy that has the nimbleness and dexterity to work well in a DCS AC is a few years off yet!

I do think DCS devs deserve credit for listening to the community. They do seem to add things to the sim such as jetseat and VR support -with ongoing and patently obvious efforts to improve it- which suggest to me that they do so not only for their customers, but because they too, are aiming to create a combat simulation as close to the real thing as possible.

Just landed my spit. When I am in that thing with VR, and a jetseat, I can't really convey to you all how convincing and wonderful it feels, what a truly beautiful thing it is to be able to fly it.

DCS/VR is not perfection just yet but its pretty damned close! Without any intention of being a crawling kiss ass here, I am truly and honestly very grateful to the DCS developers for having included VR (and jetseat) support, and their constant efforts to improve it, something they were under no obligation whatsoever to do, and something that they must feel is more trouble than it is worth sometimes!

But again I'm sure they do so because they want VR as much as we do, believe wholeheartedly that it is the future of flight simulation, and therefore are making every effort to perfect it, to the extent that we all hope and want it to be perfected.

Besides if it was perfect now, we'd have nothing left to look forward to! :)

 

Right on ! :thumbup:

[Hippo]

Moderator and tester, for nearly 7 years, as a volunteer.

 

I speak with team members daily, and have access to stuff the public do not see, I try to feedback to you guys without breaking my NDA with eagle dynamics.

 

So make of what I say as you see fit :)

 

Thank you for explaining, and for your continued efforts on here. Sorry if it came across that I was having a go at you personally.

 

I don't think ED's communications are terrible, but I do think they could with improvement.

 

I assume that you and NineLine (and others), when you post on here, are expressing your own opinions, and are restricted as to what you can say. You don't speak in an official capacity for ED. It would be nice to have an official spokesperson on here who isn't one step removed. It might also help it there was a small explanation in your signatures as to the capacity in which you speak.

 

E.g. In the specific case of the VR controls, since the official announcement that I linked to earlier, perhaps a small update on progress every three months or so could help avoid posts like this where:

 

"and its still nowhere to be seen and DCS do not keep us up to date on progress"

Edited July 13, 2019 by Hippo

[Hippo]

I do think DCS devs deserve credit for listening to the community.

 

They do. And sometimes, not so much.

 

A small example.

 

Not all will agree, but for me labels are an essential in VR. In fact, I have spent a lot of time tweaking a labels.lua, so that labels would fade in and out just so at such and such a distance, etc.

 

Well, some months ago in an update, labels no longer fade as they did. They're now only solid or invisible. Several people have raised this, and so far? Nothing. No reply, no fix, not even an acknowledgment. This is INFURIATING. Especially as it just (supposedly) requires undoing whatever was done to break it.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Hippo

[BIGNEWY]

Thank you for explaining, and for your continued efforts on here. Sorry if it came across that I was having a go at you personally.

 

I don't think ED's communications are terrible, but I do think they could with improvement.

 

I assume that you and NineLine (and others), when you post on here, are expressing your own opinions, and are restricted as to what you can say. You don't speak in an official capacity for ED. It would be nice to have an official spokesperson on here who isn't one step removed. It might also help it there was a small explanation in your signatures as to the capacity in which you speak.

 

E.g. In the specific case of the VR controls, since the official announcement that I linked to earlier, perhaps a small update on progress every three months or so could help avoid posts like this where:

 

"and its still nowhere to be seen and DCS do not keep us up to date on progress"

 

Don't worry, it is always good to ask questions if you are not sure.

 

Nineline is community manager and a ED team member, so his word is official.

Edited July 13, 2019 by BIGNEWY

[Hippo]

Nineline is community manager and a ED team

 

member, so his word is official.

 

 

I stand corrected, thank you.

[lucky-hendrix]

Would never give up my HOTAS and am realistic enough to know that a haptic glove technolgy that has the nimbleness and dexterity to work well in a DCS AC is a few years off yet!

I do think DCS devs deserve credit for listening to the community. They do seem to add things to the sim such as jetseat and VR support -with ongoing and patently obvious efforts to improve it- which suggest to me that they do so not only for their customers, but because they too, are aiming to create a combat simulation as close to the real thing as possible.

Just landed my spit. When I am in that thing with VR, and a jetseat, I can't really convey to you all how convincing and wonderful it feels, what a truly beautiful thing it is to be able to fly it.

DCS/VR is not perfection just yet but its pretty damned close! Without any intention of being a crawling kiss ass here, I am truly and honestly very grateful to the DCS developers for having included VR (and jetseat) support, and their constant efforts to improve it, something they were under no obligation whatsoever to do, and something that they must feel is more trouble than it is worth sometimes!

But again I'm sure they do so because they want VR as much as we do, believe wholeheartedly that it is the future of flight simulation, and therefore are making every effort to perfect it, to the extent that we all hope and want it to be perfected.

Besides if it was perfect now, we'd have nothing left to look forward to! :)

Just so you know, jetseat has absolutely nothing to do with ED, software is based on export function script and actually a lot of it is missing making for some discrepancies (e.g. engine rumble linked to rpm gauge rather than actual rpm).

 

All of this Ork is attributed to f410 & Andre

 

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