CAT I / CAT III Implementation

[Archaic]

Loving the Viper, but quick question:

 

I dont see the CAT config implementation anywhere in the roadmap. Is this planned for the near future? It plays a critical role in the performance limitations of the F16 so I do hope it's a priority.

 

Thanks.

[Shimmergloom667]

CAT I / III is already implemented.

[VDV]

CAT I / III is already implemented.

 

Sorry for stupid question, but wtf is catI/III?

[Shimmergloom667]

It limits the plane's AoA regime according to loadout. In a nutshell: CAT I is clean A2A, where CAT III is A2G ordnance loaded.

[Shimmergloom667]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4056954&postcount=9

[Archaic]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4056954&postcount=9

 

Thanks, I missed the official response to my own question.

 

I thought you'll have a fault light illuminate if you over g in CAT III?

 

I'm not noticing significant differences in AOA or G performance between the two.

[Shimmergloom667]

As far as I know there's no fault lights, but maybe someone of the team will chime in here.

 

You absolutely can reach 9G in CAT III, but the AOA limiter will kick in and some point and naturally lessen the G load afterwards.

[Archaic]

As far as I know there's no fault lights, but maybe someone of the team will chime in here.

 

You absolutely can reach 9G in CAT III, but the AOA limiter will kick in and some point and naturally lessen the G load afterwards.

 

I obviously don't have realworld experience with this, but in every other sim you could generate FLCS errors while flying too hard in CAT III. If that is not the case in DCS, why not stay in CAT I all the time?

[Shimmergloom667]

I obviously don't have realworld experience with this, but in every other sim you could generate FLCS errors while flying too hard in CAT III. If that is not the case in DCS, why not stay in CAT I all the time?

 

Because you wouldn't want to damage your stores with overloading them. I mean: just because you dont get error indications doesnt mean you should over-limit your plane, right?

 

And so you don't accidentally do that you set the correct CAT. AFAIK there's a stores warning light if you set the wrong CAT, but nothing specifically with regards to a certain G load.

[Deano87]

There also no stores damage from overload yet. So you can pull 9G fully loaded if you wish hehe. Hopefully that will change in the future and we will have to be more careful. I like the way the stores rip off on the Mirage if you over-G them.

[Shimmergloom667]

Yeah, me too - MiG-21 and -19 also lose stores over-G'ing, so I'm confident we'll see that in Viper and Hornet, too, come time :)

[Archaic]

It just plays a significant role in how you come off target or react when bounced that it's kind of a shame it's not in yet. Hopefully soon though. Thanks for your answers.

[Baz000]

actually there should be a stores config warning light illumination if you are loaded with CAT III stores payload and have CAT I selected to tell you as the pilot yo switch to CAT III. Also the same applies in reverse if you drop all your CAT III stores like bombs and you still have the switch set to CAT III. It says hey pilot go to CAT I.

 

Also this switch has nothing to do with G limitations and everything to do with maintaining controlled flight of the jet, at CAT III the AOA limit will drop from 25 to somewhere between 15-20 (can’t remember exactly) also rate of roll at full stick deflection is reduced and yaw rate is also reduced. Possibly pitch rate is reduced too but i’m not sure. You can still pull 9 G in CAT III, you just need to be fast enough where you won’t run into the lower end AOA limiter.

 

this switch was added because the Viper is an inherently unstable aircraft when loaded with heavy weapons stores and the pilot can depart the aircraft easily in the right conditions maneuvering the aircraft at high AOA, so basically this takes the guesswork out of the hands of the pilot to make certain that the aircraft doesn’t inadvertently depart from controlled flight because the pilot was too ham fisted with the stick and forgot not to roll too fast in the heat of the moment.

[==Wiggy==]

CAT III limits AoA to 16-18° depending on GW. And limits roll rate to~40% of CAT I and further limits it based off Airspeed and AOA. It also limits yaw based on AoA and roll rate. And as was said already above, had nothing to do with G, and everything to do with not departing controlled flight.

Edited August 4, 2020 by 000rick000

[Bunny Clark]

It just plays a significant role in how you come off target or react when bounced that it's kind of a shame it's not in yet. Hopefully soon though. Thanks for your answers.

 

But it is in. The switch is there, you can flip it, and it effects the FCS as it should. The only thing missing right now are some of the consequences of flying in Cat I when you should be in III, and a few warning lights.

[QuiGon]

But it is in. The switch is there, you can flip it, and it effects the FCS as it should. The only thing missing right now are some of the consequences of flying in Cat I when you should be in III, and a few warning lights.

Indeed, which is why in multiplayer a lot of people loaded with A/G ordonance fly around in CAT I to have an advantage... :(

[stormrider]

Indeed, which is why in multiplayer a lot of people loaded with A/G ordonance fly around in CAT I to have an advantage... :(

 

I couldn't care less about airquakers....:thumbup:

[Gunrun_KS]

actually there should be a stores config warning light illumination if you are loaded with CAT III stores payload and have CAT I selected to tell you as the pilot yo switch to CAT III. Also the same applies in reverse if you drop all your CAT III stores like bombs and you still have the switch set to CAT III. It says hey pilot go to CAT I.

 

Also this switch has nothing to do with G limitations and everything to do with maintaining controlled flight of the jet, at CAT III the AOA limit will drop from 25 to somewhere between 15-20 (can’t remember exactly) also rate of roll at full stick deflection is reduced and yaw rate is also reduced. Possibly pitch rate is reduced too but i’m not sure. You can still pull 9 G in CAT III, you just need to be fast enough where you won’t run into the lower end AOA limiter.

 

this switch was added because the Viper is an inherently unstable aircraft when loaded with heavy weapons stores and the pilot can depart the aircraft easily in the right conditions maneuvering the aircraft at high AOA, so basically this takes the guesswork out of the hands of the pilot to make certain that the aircraft doesn’t inadvertently depart from controlled flight because the pilot was too ham fisted with the stick and forgot not to roll too fast in the heat of the moment.

 

 

Cat I is 25

Cat III is 16 to 18

 

 

There also use to be Cat II (A model) but there isn't a switch for it, hence the I and III only.

[Recon21288]

I normally fly CAT III as standard and only hit CAT I if I really need the extra AOA which is only really in close range dogfighting.

[Snake122]

Is there ever going to be a damage model of hung stores, etc for over Ging a loadout so we actually use the switch to help.prevent it?

[Bunny Clark]

Is there ever going to be a damage model of hung stores, etc for over Ging a loadout so we actually use the switch to help.prevent it?

I don't know that there's any official word on this, but yes, it's highly likely we'll get that eventually.

[==Wiggy==]

Is there ever going to be a damage model of hung stores, etc for over Ging a loadout so we actually use the switch to help.prevent it?

 

As stated already numerous times, the Stores switch CATI/III, does not affect g loading. The pilot must manually avoid those limits. Use of CAT III only reduces AoA, roll rate and Yaw input based on Airspeed and AoA. It's purpose is to prevent departure from controlled flight, not over-g of the aircraft.

[Snake122]

As stated already numerous times, the Stores switch CATI/III, does not affect g loading. The pilot must manually avoid those limits. Use of CAT III only reduces AoA, roll rate and Yaw input based on Airspeed and AoA. It's purpose is to prevent departure from controlled flight, not over-g of the aircraft.

Yes, definitely that is the reason for the switch. But as I said, having the switch in CatIII has the added bonus of "helping prevent it," not completely prevent it with the lower AOA. I've had a lot of time in DCS with a CatIII loadout with the switch in CatI and, while I haven't deliberately attacked more than one limiter at a time, I have hamfisted it more than a real pilot would. But that hasn't resulted in a single departure. Is the increase risk of departure actually modeled/planned to be as well? It feels like besides for being a checklist item, there is no consequence for having CatIII selected.

 

I'm was also making comment that stores/other system damage to over Ging a CatIII loadout (regardless of the switch position) would be good to see. Are you part of the camp that the pylons/stores can take it and it doesn't need to be modeled?

 

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[Dee-Jay]

Hi!

Is the increase risk of departure actually modeled/planned to be as well?

If FM/FLCS are realistically made, it is implicit since the FLCS it maintaining "artificially" the control of the a/c which is naturally unstable.

Remove/inactivate the FLCS module (if DCS is modeled as is) ... the F-16 should be "unflyable".

 

I do not remember the exact procedure/configuration, but something you can test is on a specific CATIII asymmetric (or not) conf, fly HART under CATI. You should depart much easily.

 

Regards.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Dee-Jay

[Snake122]

Hi!

If FM/FLCS are realistically made, it is implicit since the FLCS it maintaining "artificially" the control of the a/c which is naturally unstable.

Remove/inactivate the FLCS module (if DCS is modeled as is) ... the F-16 should be "unflyable".

 

I do not remember the exact procedure/configuration, but something you can test is on a specific CATIII asymmetric (or not) conf, fly HART under CATI. You should depart much easily.

 

Regards.

 

Thanks for that Dee-Jay!

 

I will admit after purposely and aggressively attacking all three limiters with asymmetric CatIII loadout/CatI position I can get departures, especially the good old inverted flat spin. The CatIII position does prevent or reduce the severity/duration of the departure. I had to be much more extreme than slight increases HART profiles in the MCH 11-F16. So yes, the CatIII position is preventing departures in DCS! I had to really work to get there to where it has to practically be done on purpose though.

 

So 000rick000, I'm now more of a believer of the CatIII in the current state, thank you for making go try it! But I still want to hear people's thoughts on over G pylon/stores/etc damage that the risk of happening can be reduced, but not eliminated, by having the switch in CatIII :D

 

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