Use of flares in air combat

[Hog_driver]

I wonder if flares could be used in air combat as desperate measure?

A flare sucked into an engine inlet would probably damage the fan blades.

I know there wouldn't be many opportunities to use this "tactic", but in theory it could at least distract the enemy at our six o'clock.

What do you think?

[Emmy]

If flares are your last line of defense, you were dead twenty minutes ago...

[norbot]

Since flares are only relatively small pyrotechnic cartridges, I have slight doubt that they would damage turbine blades if ingested. In addition, they do not fly on a straight trajectory behind the aircraft but fall in a ballistic curve. How do you want to aim at the air intake of an airplane behind you and even hit it with your flares??? :huh:

[Hog_driver]

Since flares are only relatively small pyrotechnic cartridges, I have slight doubt that they would damage turbine blades if ingested. In addition, they do not fly on a straight trajectory behind the aircraft but fall in a ballistic curve. How do you want to aim at the air intake of an airplane behind you and even hit it with your flares??? :huh:

 

As I said, it would be a last resort measure, of course it's not possible to aim them. Just fire them like a shotgun shot and hope for the best.

[norbot]

Like Emmy said, then you're dead already. :D

[Kang]

I, too, doubt they would effective in getting a determined enemy off your back, but if you are lucky they might distract someone for a short moment, especially in low-lighting conditions.

 

I believe David Morgan related a somewhat similar story from the Falklands War during which some British ships would fire their Sea Slug SAMs, which were not only fairly outdated at the time, but also absolutely incapable of tracking a low-flying fighter, in what he described as GASH mode (Give Argies the Shit), the point being that those missiles made quite a flash and a horrendous amount of smoke as they set off, in an attempt to distract the Argentine A-4 pilots trying to drop bombs on other ships. Obviously that was a bit more than a simple flare which a pilot probably expects to be there and it came in a moment in which those A-4 pilots had to manually aim bombs right in the middle of a cluster of actually dangerous missile launches they had to watch for.

[Hog_driver]

Like Emmy said, then you're dead already. :D

 

What about two-player guns only fights, like those fought by Growling Sidewinder?

[Hog_driver]

That's interesting, didn't know that.

[Emmy]

I, too, doubt they would effective in getting a determined enemy off your back, but if you are lucky they might distract someone for a short moment, especially in low-lighting conditions.

 

I believe David Morgan related a somewhat similar story from the Falklands War during which some British ships would fire their Sea Slug SAMs, which were not only fairly outdated at the time, but also absolutely incapable of tracking a low-flying fighter, in what he described as GASH mode (Give Argies the Shit), the point being that those missiles made quite a flash and a horrendous amount of smoke as they set off, in an attempt to distract the Argentine A-4 pilots trying to drop bombs on other ships. Obviously that was a bit more than a simple flare which a pilot probably expects to be there and it came in a moment in which those A-4 pilots had to manually aim bombs right in the middle of a cluster of actually dangerous missile launches they had to watch for.

 

Not unlike what AA gunners did in WWII where they purposely fired into the water in an attempt to make the splashes blind, distract, disrupt and even destroy Japanese torpedo planes.

[Hog_driver]

So you know what I'm talking about. Try to damage the enemy plane or at least create a distraction which may give you a small advantage. I'm afraid there's no simulator that would allow such subtleties.

I tried it many years ago in A.C.E. on C-64, when an enemy plane was on my tail firing ceaselessly (you could watch it thanks to a rear-facing camera) and I kept dropping flares out of frustration, to no avail :)

[Keks]

You would be better off just releasing the chute.

 

Is this a DCS or a real life question, but the answer to both would be no. You will have more success just ramming.

[lobo]

Or, wait till you have enemy cornered at your 6, then pop your brakes and Ctrl-E-E-E...

[QuiGon]

Since flares are only relatively small pyrotechnic cartridges, I have slight doubt that they would damage turbine blades if ingested. In addition, they do not fly on a straight trajectory behind the aircraft but fall in a ballistic curve. How do you want to aim at the air intake of an airplane behind you and even hit it with your flares??? :huh:

I would imagine that chaff might be more of a hazard to the turbines than flares are?

[philstyle]

Like Emmy said, then you're dead already. :D

 

 

There is a famous case of a P47 (i think it was a P47) pilot who had a german aircraft on his six. As a last resort, he decided to fire his guns ahead inot nothing. Apparently (accroding tot he P47 pilot) it worked, and german broke off immediately. IT is suggetsed that the german saw the tracers and thought a new aircraft had arrived.

 

 

So, doing something bizarre, can sometimes work . . apparently!

 

 

 

I just wish I had the incident referenced/ linked. It's been a few years since I read about this.

[Jonne]

I would imagine that chaff might be more of a hazard to the turbines than flares are?

 

Chaff are just plastic strips, propably already burned in the compressor area of the engine. You would have more effect throwing your car keys or kneeboard out. But again, if the enemy is close enough to hit anything you release from your aircraft, you are dead already.

[QuiGon]

Chaff are just plastic strips, propably already burned in the compressor area of the engine. You would have more effect throwing your car keys or kneeboard out. But again, if the enemy is close enough to hit anything you release from your aircraft, you are dead already.

Plastic? I thought they're metal (tin foil)?

[grafspee]

i think you would have higher chances by simply blowing cannopy and then put your side arm to use :)

And i think that flare maybe serious danger for engine, but i m not familiar with flare size.

Modern engines in fighters are turbofans, those engines are less prone to damage by induction stuff, most of it will pass engine through bypass not entering turbine section.

Edited October 7, 2019 by grafspee

[Jonne]

Plastic? I thought they're metal (tin foil)?

 

No, they are mostly metallized plastic or carbon fibre. But even tin foil would not survive the compressor outlet temperature.

[QuiGon]

No, they are mostly metallized plastic or carbon fibre. But even tin foil would not survive the compressor outlet temperature.

Alright then.

[grafspee]

No, they are mostly metallized plastic or carbon fibre. But even tin foil would not survive the compressor outlet temperature.

 

Its most likely that flare would go thought bypass duck, so it wont enter Hp copressor at all.

[Cab]

I wonder if flares could be used in air combat as desperate measure?

A flare sucked into an engine inlet would probably damage the fan blades.

I know there wouldn't be many opportunities to use this "tactic", but in theory it could at least distract the enemy at our six o'clock.

What do you think?

 

Any chance you’ve seen the movie, Firefox?

[Jonne]

Its most likely that flare would go thought bypass duck, so it wont enter Hp copressor at all.

 

No, these are low bypass turbofans or even turbojets, so chances are even or higher, that things will go through the HP section. But no matter how, I'd be more concerned about heavy rain, hail etc., than a flare or chaff doing damage to the engine.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Jonne
Added quote

[Hog_driver]

Any chance you’ve seen the movie, Firefox?

 

I've seen it, probably more that 25 years ago :)

[mkosmo]

As I said, it would be a last resort measure, of course it's not possible to aim them. Just fire them like a shotgun shot and hope for the best.

I take it you're not a shooter.

[Pinola]

Some time ago, i was flying the aggressor mission for the mirage in the nevada map. I shot down the first F5, but the second F5 was at my 6, after some maneuvers turning and braking, he overshot me, so I get behind him, at really close range and turning tight, I lock him with the radar and he release a flare ( I guess the IA do that everytime is locked). Then the flare came right to my windshield.... BOOM, my screen went white for maybe 1 -2 seconds. It caught me off guard, and when the image came back, the F5 was at my 10 and high.

So I guess is not a tactic, but possible that this "accident" happens.