Problem with QA & release doctrine

[Phantom_Mark]

I hate to be a moany old git but since the Viper was released we have had nothing but problems with what was once quite a stable working and enjoyable F18, annoys the heck out of me because those who haven't bought the viper are now suffering due to poor and rushed implementation of the Viper into the DCS world imho.

 

For the record I only bought the Viper to support the team......not appreciating the QA and rushed release of the Viper into the world at all.

[Airhunter]

Well, that is quite obvious. Viper getting proper INS before the Hornet is also kind of a low blow.

 

Just the way it is these days.

[Phantom_Mark]

Well, that is quite obvious. Viper getting proper INS before the Hornet is also kind of a low blow.

 

Just the way it is these days.

 

The excuse it will be the same code and then the F18 will get updates just doesn't wash i'm afraid, shared code is fine, but surely "new" features should come on the older projects first, then be shared across into the newer projects once they are proven to work ? :joystick:

[Nooch]

Agree...

[will-]

is the viper out on the stable version?

[razo+r]

No

[Phantom_Mark]

What is the point any uploading ANY version if it breaks something...... ??

 

I am no moron btw, I come from a games development background and did 2yrs as QA Lead on AAA titles......I am very familiar with Alpha, Beta builds and how to develop a game, from my eyes I am seeing either a lack of care or sloppy QA.

[will-]

your join date is 2007, sometimes the stable version will get broken also. this is how ed operates. and im sure they are aware of the issues, if not feel free to post in the bug section to report.

[Preendog]

this is how ed operates

 

It is how dishonest bait and switch indie devs work too.

 

It is not a good look, and NOT typical of sim developers. Il-2, SB Pro, all stable each release, and scope of each product carefully regulated.

 

Wish I had known this before getting F/A-18. Had no idea it had been in development for bloody years.

 

Not a penny more until the huge backlog of bugs is done and all the advertised features in.

 

Hate seeing or writing stuff like this but it has to be done.

 

If ED operates like this the people they bamboozle have no other recourse.

 

I'm sure the devs themselves don't enjoy this dishonor. Make a change.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Preendog

[MrDieing]

So many people with hurt feelings, feel so sorry for you all. Grow up, voice your criticism in something else then a blatent useless rant.

[Phantom_Mark]

your join date is 2007, sometimes the stable version will get broken also. this is how ed operates. and im sure they are aware of the issues, if not feel free to post in the bug section to report.

 

Yup, I have been supporting this company since the days of the original Flanker.......and in all that time I have never felt the need to come on a forum and say something negative like this, I am generally a happy customer despite the up's and downs of development over the years, the Viper release and F18 thing have left a sour taste in my mouth and left me wondering why we are where we are at now ? In the past 6 months I have bought the F14, F18, F16, Viggen, Harrier, to add to my already large collection of KA50, UH1, A10C, FW190, F86 Sabre, Mig 21, FC3, all the maps etc, I am all in......but feeling like we have been done over with the F18 at the moment.

[Phantom_Mark]

So many people with hurt feelings, feel so sorry for you all. Grow up, voice your criticism in something else then a blatent useless rant.

 

I don't see how pissing off customers who supported the company since the year dot and invested hundreds is a useless opinion, but you feel free to pi55 on my parade with your equally worthless opinion little boy.......

[MrDieing]

I don't see how pissing off customers who supported the company since the year dot and invested hundreds is a useless opinion, but you feel free to pi55 on my parade with your equally worthless opinion little boy.......

 

I did not say your opinion is useless, just the way you express it. The 'I have been in the business so obviously I know better' strategy also does not really work on the internet. There is plenty to be criticized but what often lacks is constructivism and reason. This is just being salty. And the quote 'If you cant stand EA, dont buy EA' also applies to you if you cant come up with more then what you have been spitting out so far.

[Preendog]

People complain because this could be a genuine, full-on game someday that actually works. Balanced, stable, no exploits. Coders publishing new feature and content with confidence and pride that it's not going to limp on for years unfinished. Players not wondering every time something weird happens if it's a bug or feature. Think of how great that would be.

 

If players didn't care they would just move on to something else.

 

e.spelling

Edited November 3, 2019 by Preendog

[Andrei]

Heh. This topic has been raised numerous times here and in Hoggit. Kinda shows that many people didn't take this approach lightly. And, personally I wholeheartedly agree this is not cool, regardless of what it means in the long / medium run.

 

It's probably too late to change anything for our F-18 / F-16 pair. Things will probably continue to be broken. Viper will keep getting more recent tech faster than Hornet, cause, well, this is what they're working on. Can we change anything about it? Nope. Should we keep bitching? Probably not either, because all the feedback has been given already. Maybe, just maybe we can hope that this feedback will be taken into consideration in future.

 

For now, enjoy the ride. Or not :)

[Arctander]

Completely agree.

 

As a point of principle any shared tech/system should come to the older plane first, and then move accross to the viper, or at worst be deployed at the same time.

 

It’s this behaviour that has led to me closing my wallet on ED until they treat their customers with respect instead of chasing the next EA cash hype train.

[Chuck_Henry]

The unfortunate reality, in the words of the founder himself, is that the Early Access module is the only thing keeping DCS profitable. Working on the core sim does not generate revenue. Working on modules for which the sales have already peaked and (mostly) fizzled out does not generate revenue. Churning out new modules for Early Access release generates hype and revenue. Where do you think the development team is going to direct their talent and labor?

 

We've reached the point in which I believe Eagle Dynamics needs to seriously consider a subscription model for DCS. There needs to be a way for the core sim to make money, or we are never going to see another finished module unless it's from a third-party.

[NineLine]

The unfortunate reality, in the words of the founder himself, is that the Early Access module is the only thing keeping DCS profitable. Working on the core sim does not generate revenue. Working on modules for which the sales have already peaked and (mostly) fizzled out does not generate revenue. Churning out new modules for Early Access release generates hype and revenue. Where do you think the development team is going to direct their talent and labor?

 

We've reached the point in which I believe Eagle Dynamics needs to seriously consider a subscription model for DCS. There needs to be a way for the core sim to make money, or we are never going to see another finished module unless it's from a third-party.

 

Please recognize that the founder also said as much as half the team is working on core issues currently, so it's not like the core is abandoned.

[NineLine]

I hate to be a moany old git but since the Viper was released we have had nothing but problems with what was once quite a stable working and enjoyable F18, annoys the heck out of me because those who haven't bought the viper are now suffering due to poor and rushed implementation of the Viper into the DCS world imho.

 

For the record I only bought the Viper to support the team......not appreciating the QA and rushed release of the Viper into the world at all.

 

Your best bet is to stick with stable release then, Open Beta is part of our QA process, we have stated this, the feedback we get from users willing to make reports is invaluable to our small team. Nothing that has been added to the Viper should break the Hornet, there were some small issues with the Hornet, but all could be linked to changes and additions to the Hornet. Thanks.

[Phantom_Mark]

Your best bet is to stick with stable release then, Open Beta is part of our QA process, we have stated this, the feedback we get from users willing to make reports is invaluable to our small team. Nothing that has been added to the Viper should break the Hornet, there were some small issues with the Hornet, but all could be linked to changes and additions to the Hornet. Thanks.

 

Well this is where I have to challenge the system i'm afraid, some of the issues we have faced since the Viper was released have completely broken the Hornet, they have hardly been small issues, and exactly the sorts of things which ideally should have been caught by QA before forwarding the code for building ? that is exactly my point.......there should be no game breaking issues "ideally" in a BETA build, that's Alpha territory.......unless of course we are not really playing with a Beta but merely a renamed Alpha ?

 

"Alpha Testing is a type of software testing performed to identify bugs before releasing the product to real users or to the public. ... Beta Testing is performed by real users of the software application in a real environment. Beta testing is one of the type of User Acceptance Testing."

Edited November 3, 2019 by Phantom_Mark

[will-]

Yup, I have been supporting this company since the days of the original Flanker.......and in all that time I have never felt the need to come on a forum and say something negative like this, I am generally a happy customer despite the up's and downs of development over the years, the Viper release and F18 thing have left a sour taste in my mouth and left me wondering why we are where we are at now ? In the past 6 months I have bought the F14, F18, F16, Viggen, Harrier, to add to my already large collection of KA50, UH1, A10C, FW190, F86 Sabre, Mig 21, FC3, all the maps etc, I am all in......but feeling like we have been done over with the F18 at the moment.

 

your 1st sentence just a huge contradiction though if you want to discuss why your unhappy.

 

i don't understand the viper/18 conflict.

 

it's like saying when the f15 got a AFM and every came to fourms saying "why not my plane".

 

i guess you missed my point of you being here since 2007. i understand you know how ed works but do you?

 

like i said it's been this way since i joined. and if anything they have improved... Hey this time we actually got a F18... rip cortex.

[Phantom_Mark]

I guess I would just like to see a little more care before they fire out the builds, I am not anti EA.....as evidenced by my purchases.

 

:thumbup:

[NineLine]

Well this is where I have to challenge the system i'm afraid, some of the issues we have faced since the Viper was released have completely broken the Hornet, they have hardly been small issues, and exactly the sorts of things which ideally should have been caught by QA before forwarding the code for building ? that is exactly my point.......there should be no game breaking issues "ideally" in a BETA build, that's Alpha territory.......unless of course we are not really playing with a Beta but merely a renamed Alpha ?

 

"Alpha Testing is a type of software testing performed to identify bugs before releasing the product to real users or to the public. ... Beta Testing is performed by real users of the software application in a real environment. Beta testing is one of the type of User Acceptance Testing."

 

Re-read what I said, I just told you what we use Open Beta for, these are the terms we use, and how we use our different versions, if you don't want these types of issues, your best bet is with the stable release. Again, we have a small team, and limited paid testers, the volunteer testers do decent work, but again there are few of them and well, are a volunteer. So we set up Open Beta as another line of defence, if you dont want to be part of that I get it, but that is what we use Open Beta for.

[Arctander]

I have to agree with Bignewy. The general definitions of alpha and beta as used in basic software development doesn’t really mean much any more in game software. It’s much more agile by appearances with sprints. In that case what they define open beta as is up to them to do.

 

I basically treat open beta as a potentially broken alpha. Just a shame that we don’t have (yet) visibility of the backlog and sprint backlogs. I really really hope that this new spirit of transparency that Ed are talking about goes to that level of granular detail using automatic updating technology from their controlling software.

 

I would of course much prefer more work to be done in the Hornet than is currently happening. Do we know if/when the systems devs will be coming back on to the hornet? It seems with the latest newsletter that only existing and new weapons are being worked on and any new radar modes and other avionics is at the back of the queue. Would be nice to know what kind of horizon the newsletters cover. Next month? Next two timeboxes? Or is it time unspecified. It obviously isn’t the whole backlog as there is much more to come...

[DLEGION]

guys… all this mess because its years (two , more or less) of frustration from F18 buyers mounted up, i'm sure everyone is happy to have bought F18 and supported the team, as probably everyone (even if some fanboys will not admit) wish a beta not last for 2 years and still be at 50% complete ... foreseeing another 2 years to complete IF devs attention does not shift on other modules... like F16.

i personally dont like non-naval planes, so i dont care about F16 anyway, but probably other people "dont hate F16", its just they see theyr F18 pushed away even more, and feeling it will never complete.

is very simple as that.

walleye is a good example, nothing wrong with it, but i bet 99to1 that most player would have preferred see the already present weapons fixed.

im quite sure that if the Whole ED team take just one full-immersion week of bug-fixing and simple feature adding, many angry people here would be really happier, but sadly that will not happen.

so everyone must do its choice, i did mine, and F18 will be my last module until it will be complete.

Edited November 10, 2019 by DLEGION