ebabil Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 While litening pod on the right, plane rolls to its right very steeply. When i apply just one click trim to left, it starts to roll to its left immediately. Is this normal? How can a single click trim do that? Taking it from right roll to a left roll. It shouldn't do it even during straight flight FC3 | UH-1 | Mi-8 | A-10C II | F/A-18 | Ka-50 III | F-14 | F-16 | AH-64 | Mi-24 | F-5 | F-15E| F-4| Tornado Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | NS-430 | Supercarrier // Wishlist: CH-53 | UH-60 Youtube MS FFB2 - TM Warthog - CH Pro Pedals - Trackir 5
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted December 31, 2019 ED Team Posted December 31, 2019 Hi Seems ok for me when I test. Factors include the loadout and the wind direction and speed. Best thing to do is attach a track replay so we can see your issue. thanks Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, PIMAX Crystal
Deano87 Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 This is just the ultra sensitive roll trim as noted since release in the following thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=251445 I do think it’s a bit excessively sensitive. Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again.
ebabil Posted December 31, 2019 Author Posted December 31, 2019 track is attached FC3 | UH-1 | Mi-8 | A-10C II | F/A-18 | Ka-50 III | F-14 | F-16 | AH-64 | Mi-24 | F-5 | F-15E| F-4| Tornado Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | NS-430 | Supercarrier // Wishlist: CH-53 | UH-60 Youtube MS FFB2 - TM Warthog - CH Pro Pedals - Trackir 5
randomTOTEN Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) Your track demonstrates inadequate aircraft control. You begin the track at 400KCAS and end it less than 345KCAS. You never maintain a stable airspeed, or altitude, and you have a lateral asymmetry (TGP). You can't trim the control forces in a continuously changing flight path and expect the result to be straight and level flight. You had inadequate thrust for your chosen speed/aircraft drag/altitude. Instead of correcting the problem with more throttle while you attempted to trim, you pitched up. You increased the Coefficient of Lift (pulled back) to compensate, compounding your roll asymmetry problem with entirely appropriate results. I took control of your track, gave a single click of left rudder (to counteract the TGP drag), then maintained a constant altitude at 350KCAS and trimmed for hands off flight. I had less than 1-2 degrees of roll for every 5-10 seconds. Perfectly manageable and acceptable. This is what's so frustrating with these "it doesn't trim right" threads. Users don't want to consider the skills of trimming (they assume there's no skill to learn), just assuming the trim is "broken". Edited December 31, 2019 by randomTOTEN
ebabil Posted December 31, 2019 Author Posted December 31, 2019 Sir, what is frustating is, finding normal from right roll to left roll with single trim click just because 50 kts speed change. IDK maybe something wrong with on my side, controller etc -it doesn't feel like btw- but this is not normal. I am attaching 390'ish kts track as well. FC3 | UH-1 | Mi-8 | A-10C II | F/A-18 | Ka-50 III | F-14 | F-16 | AH-64 | Mi-24 | F-5 | F-15E| F-4| Tornado Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | NS-430 | Supercarrier // Wishlist: CH-53 | UH-60 Youtube MS FFB2 - TM Warthog - CH Pro Pedals - Trackir 5
randomTOTEN Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) See? Isn't it much nicer when you achieve steady state flight before you attempt to trim? I'm assuming you released the stick and throttle after you displayed the control indicator (i.e. hands off flight) It took 13 seconds for the jet to bank just 10º to the right. That's pretty good, even with just 'rough' trimming. That's enough time to write down the coordinates of your target, look back up, and the jet is pretty much going where you left it... It'll take you some more time (on your part) to fine tune the trim situation, but that's normal behavior. Remember, this is a 'relaxed stability' fighter jet. It's not Cessna 172, and you don't have the benefit of big large trim wheels that you can adjust ever so slightly. Also: Try zooming in your display more. You'll have a better perspective, and you can read the displays better. Edited December 31, 2019 by randomTOTEN
randomTOTEN Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 I just took control of your 2nd track, spent some time trimming.. and at 412KCAS 10,000FT it took 39 seconds for the jet to bank 10º with no control input.
ebabil Posted December 31, 2019 Author Posted December 31, 2019 What's the difference between hornet then? hornet almost doesn't respond to one click to trim. I don't think it should be that effective. At least i should hit the trim 3-4 times to get this plane behave like this. FC3 | UH-1 | Mi-8 | A-10C II | F/A-18 | Ka-50 III | F-14 | F-16 | AH-64 | Mi-24 | F-5 | F-15E| F-4| Tornado Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | NS-430 | Supercarrier // Wishlist: CH-53 | UH-60 Youtube MS FFB2 - TM Warthog - CH Pro Pedals - Trackir 5
randomTOTEN Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 I don't think it should be that effective.. Why should this be tuned for user opinion? It's like saying "I don't think the wings should be that big." "I don't think it should have 1 engine, they should give it 2." Trim in the real jet moves at the real rate when commanded by stick hat, we should have an identical experience in DCS, for both the Viper and Hornet (even if they are different)
ebabil Posted December 31, 2019 Author Posted December 31, 2019 I am not saying it should be like this because i want it like in that way. I am saying that trim is too sensitive unlike other modules in dcs. Thanks for your comments btw FC3 | UH-1 | Mi-8 | A-10C II | F/A-18 | Ka-50 III | F-14 | F-16 | AH-64 | Mi-24 | F-5 | F-15E| F-4| Tornado Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | NS-430 | Supercarrier // Wishlist: CH-53 | UH-60 Youtube MS FFB2 - TM Warthog - CH Pro Pedals - Trackir 5
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted December 31, 2019 ED Team Posted December 31, 2019 Hi ebabil thanks for the tracks and your feedback. The trim is working as intended as far as we can tell. Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, PIMAX Crystal
ebabil Posted December 31, 2019 Author Posted December 31, 2019 yep https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=253637 https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=252194 https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=251445 FC3 | UH-1 | Mi-8 | A-10C II | F/A-18 | Ka-50 III | F-14 | F-16 | AH-64 | Mi-24 | F-5 | F-15E| F-4| Tornado Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | NS-430 | Supercarrier // Wishlist: CH-53 | UH-60 Youtube MS FFB2 - TM Warthog - CH Pro Pedals - Trackir 5
randomTOTEN Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 hornet almost doesn't respond to one click to trim. I also don't believe this is true either. The Hornet responds very quickly to trim commands, it takes very little time to return to an "in-trim" condition after launching even the largest weapons. They feel about the same to me.
Eldur Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 Trim sensitivity threads either moved to wish list or marked correct as is while the Viper is a PITP in this regard compared to the Hornet or other assets (none of which is perfect, but a lot better), this brings me to the conclusion that the real Viper must be a PITP as well May I add to the brew the ingredient of fact that fps heavily influences the trim rate in DCS? This is the real problem here. I just did a quick check up with the neck up when ecountering this issue in the beginning and immediately noticed that it was much less of pronounced on screen than it is in VR where the framerate literally is cut in half or even less. And I also reckoned that most guys reporting having issues here have either an old CPU or not the top notch GPU or both at the same time. I haven't seen anyone with a 9900, 64GB, NVMe and a 2080ti complain at all. But the ones running a 1070 or less, or a 4th gen Intel core or even older are. But again, correct as is...
bkthunder Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 Hi Seems ok for me when I test. Factors include the loadout and the wind direction and speed. Best thing to do is attach a track replay so we can see your issue. thanks I'm a little baffled to see an ED official state that wind direction and speed affects the trimming of the aircraft. It's basic pilot knowledge that wind has absolutely 0 aerodynamic effect on a flying aircraft, so if wind really is a factor in this case, then something is fundamnetally wrong with the FM. Windows 10 - Intel i7 7700K 4.2 Ghz (no OC) - Asus Strix GTX 1080 8Gb - 16GB DDR4 (3000 MHz) - SSD 500GB + WD Black FZEX 1TB 6Gb/s
Pikey Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 I'm a little baffled to see an ED official state that wind direction and speed affects the trimming of the aircraft. It's basic pilot knowledge that wind has absolutely 0 aerodynamic effect on a flying aircraft, so if wind really is a factor in this case, then something is fundamnetally wrong with the FM. Hey, if ED could afford aeronautical engineers as their Community managers it would be great, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume everyone at ED is. BIGNEWYS specialty is being nice and helpful. I guess your speciality is not :) ___________________________________________________________________________ SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING *
bkthunder Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 Hey, if ED could afford aeronautical engineers as their Community managers it would be great, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume everyone at ED is. BIGNEWYS specialty is being nice and helpful. I guess your speciality is not :) Do yourself a favor, re-read my post and take a deep breath before resorting to passive-aggressive personal attacks for no reason. By your logic, I should be an aeronautical engineer because I know wind doesn't affect an aircraft in flight. However this is basic pilot knowledge, available to anyone (as I already said in my previous post, had you cared to apply reading-comprehension skills while reading it). Did I come off as being harsh? Maybe. It was not my intention and I aplogize if I did. No hard feelings towards Bignewy and I believe if he feels offended he is fully able to speak for himself. We all know that writing doesn't convey tone and emotions as much as speaking. Anyhow let me clarify my point. We are in a flight-sim forum discussing a possible bug. When Bignewy (or anyone from ED) responds by saying it's not a bug and that wind affects trimming, that is not helpful because: 1. It spreads negative knowledge in a community that is keen on learning about flying 2. It dismisses a possible bug for the wrong reason What an ED official writes has a different weight and value compared to what Joe Pilot forum user writes. Windows 10 - Intel i7 7700K 4.2 Ghz (no OC) - Asus Strix GTX 1080 8Gb - 16GB DDR4 (3000 MHz) - SSD 500GB + WD Black FZEX 1TB 6Gb/s
bbrz Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 so if wind really is a factor in this case, then something is fundamnetally wrong with the FM. As in case of e.g. the F-5 where IAS/TAS varies with head/tailwind ;) i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070
bkthunder Posted January 11, 2020 Posted January 11, 2020 As in case of e.g. the F-5 where IAS/TAS varies with head/tailwind ;) Seriously?? :shocking: Windows 10 - Intel i7 7700K 4.2 Ghz (no OC) - Asus Strix GTX 1080 8Gb - 16GB DDR4 (3000 MHz) - SSD 500GB + WD Black FZEX 1TB 6Gb/s
bbrz Posted January 11, 2020 Posted January 11, 2020 Seriously: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=214854&highlight=tailwind i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070
Deano87 Posted January 11, 2020 Posted January 11, 2020 As I mentioned in that thread bbrz I believe the difference in IAS shown when flying with/against the wind isn’t due to the wind effecting the FM itself incorrectly but is due to the engines using ground speed as their air intake reference speed and a change in engine thrust from that. If you set the strongest possible wind and slow the aircraft down fully while heading into it you will notice the engine thrust falls off a cliff as your ground speed gets lower, regardless of your IAS. Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again.
Dee-Jay Posted January 11, 2020 Posted January 11, 2020 Seriously: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=214854&highlight=tailwind If this is confirmed, to me, it should be a showstopper as it is a major ... major flaws. Not only for FM but also engine, fuel ... combat ... etc ... ASUSTeK ROG MAXIMUS X HERO / Intel Core i5-8600K (4.6 GHz) / NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti FE 12GB / 32GB DDR4 Ballistix Elite 3200 MHz / Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB / Be Quiet! Straight Power 11 1000W Platinum / Windows 10 Home 64-bit / HOTAS Cougar FSSB R1 (Warthog grip) / SIMPED / MFD Cougar / ViperGear ICP / SimShaker JetPad / Track IR 5 / Curved LED 27'' Monitor 1080p Samsung C27F396 / HP Reverb G2 VR Headset.
DarkStar Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 So regarding the sensitivity, on the MLU variants during startups, we used a trim check to verify the control surfaces move as they should. When the pilot used the trim hat on the stick the surfaces barely moved at all, and you had to really focus to observe the correct movement. When the pilot reached back and used his hands on the trim wheel on the other hand, the surfaces moves as we observe in DCS. Might be a block 50/52 thing to be that sensitiv on the hat it seems.
Sharpe_95 Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) F16 Trim Coarseness Question Hi Guys, I just wanted to see if anyone else was experiencing an issue with the F16 trim roll axis whereby it is basically impossible to properly trim the aircraft in the roll axis when loaded with or when a load out becomes asymmetric? Specifically I am having trouble when the targeting pod is attached and/or when I have fired 1 amraam, creating an asymmetric configuration. My next question is: Is this the expected behaviour or just the situation with the 16 at the moment and will likely be 'improved' as the module develops? -S Edited April 10, 2020 by Sharpe_95
Recommended Posts