Aircraft before the 1993 tech explosion for DCS

[Evoman]

In continuance with cold war aircraft I recently ran across an interesting discussion between the differences of the F-16A and the F-16C.  I was not quite aware of their significant differences in terms of weight and wing loading that made the F-16A far more agile and efficient.

"From F-16A to F-16C b50 CCIP surface remained the same despite way bigger mass increase. Problem had become so obvious, for Block 70 they eventually had to increase its wing surface - but this increased drag, especially in turn, wasting engine power increase benefits, fuel hungry engine, thus CFT practically permanently mounted for more fuel and yet another drag increase) - moral is simple, first design was optimal, later it lost its balance and it can't be restored by simply increasing wing surface or engine power.) "

Therefore the F-16A would make a great candidate for the cold war era because it would be a more engaging for close up dogfights with just guns and heat seekers. Plus I bet "most" current F-16C pilots would be interested to be able to participate in cold war battles in a more streamlined aircraft they already  love.

Plus the F-16A was operated by more foreign countries.

 

 

 

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Evoman said:

In continuance with cold war aircraft I recently ran across an interesting discussion between the differences of the F-16A and the F-16C.  I was not quite aware of their significant differences in terms of weight and wing loading that made the F-16A far more agile and efficient.

"From F-16A to F-16C b50 CCIP surface remained the same despite way bigger mass increase. Problem had become so obvious, for Block 70 they eventually had to increase its wing surface - but this increased drag, especially in turn, wasting engine power increase benefits, fuel hungry engine, thus CFT practically permanently mounted for more fuel and yet another drag increase) - moral is simple, first design was optimal, later it lost its balance and it can't be restored by simply increasing wing surface or engine power.) "

Therefore the F-16A would make a great candidate for the cold war era because it would be a more engaging for close up dogfights with just guns and heat seekers. Plus I bet "most" current F-16C pilots would be interested to be able to participate in cold war battles in a more streamlined aircraft they already  love.

Plus the F-16A was operated by more foreign countries.

 

 

 

An early model F-teen would be awesome. I would like aircraft from the 1950s or 1960s but I would buy the F-16A. The Beka Valley would be awesome 

[Mogster]

On 7/16/2022 at 4:32 PM, Silver_Dragon said:

We know M3 dont go to build a U-4 Korean version. Actually, has none "propper" versions... Example, none Vietnam F-4 and Mig-21s. 

A couple of the M3 guys (Hiromachi and Rudel) were on the ACS podcast recently for an hour. I seem to remember one of the M3 guys (Hiromachi?) saying they’d like to make the - 4 and - 5. However it sounded like much more of an aspiration rather than something they are actively working on.
 

I was a bit disappointed as I’d much prefer the earlier WW2 versions… 

[upyr1]

17 hours ago, Mogster said:

A couple of the M3 guys (Hiromachi and Rudel) were on the ACS podcast recently for an hour. I seem to remember one of the M3 guys (Hiromachi?) saying they’d like to make the - 4 and - 5. However it sounded like much more of an aspiration rather than something they are actively working on.
 

I was a bit disappointed as I’d much prefer the earlier WW2 versions… 

Ideally we'd get multiple versions 

[Evoman]

On 7/22/2022 at 8:45 PM, upyr1 said:

An early model F-teen would be awesome. I would like aircraft from the 1950s or 1960s but I would buy the F-16A. The Beka Valley would be awesome 

The most request aircraft I have seen from those eras has  been the F-100 Super Saber. It carried out more combat missions in Vietnam than even the F-4 Phantom. So such an icon would defiantly have to be done at some point in the future. 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Evoman

[Harlikwin]

On 7/22/2022 at 12:21 AM, upyr1 said:

I'm enjoying the Mirage F1 as well as the 2k. 

I'm glad to see the cold war is taking shape, at least the 1970s the Mirage F1 is cool. I like the Mirage 2k as well, I'm looking forward to the Phantom. 

 

Well, the F1 is certainly cold war even though we have the lastest greatest 80's version. 

The M2k we have generally speaking is not. Its basically a 90's era bird. You only had a small amount of RDI and 530D equipped mirages flying in like 88, so like for the last year of the cold war which hardly makes it representative. And even the earlier RDM radar birds were so few in actual number to kinda make the whole thing moot. Though I'd welcome a early 80's RDM M2000 with Super 530F's. 

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

Well, the F1 is certainly cold war even though we have the lastest greatest 80's version. 

The M2k we have generally speaking is not. Its basically a 90's era bird. You only had a small amount of RDI and 530D equipped mirages flying in like 88, so like for the last year of the cold war which hardly makes it representative. And even the earlier RDM radar birds were so few in actual number to kinda make the whole thing moot. Though I'd welcome a early 80's RDM M2000 with Super 530F's. 

I believe the Mirage 2k entered service in 1984. So it was late cold war. So I figured our version was late 80s early 90s. I wasn't sure. 

1 hour ago, Evoman said:

The most request aircraft I have seen from those eras has  been the F-100 Super Saber. It carried out more combat missions in Vietnam than even the F-4 Phantom. So such and icon would defiantly have to be done at some point in the future. 

 

I would love it if we could do it while we have some Hun veterans with us.

[WinterH]

2 hours ago, Evoman said:

The most request aircraft I have seen from those eras has  been the F-100 Super Saber. It carried out more combat missions in Vietnam than even the F-4 Phantom. So such and icon would defiantly have to be done at some point in the future. 

Hun is a cool aircraft, and of the kind that is one of my favorites in DCS. I'd really welcome one. It'd go really well with MiG-19, and seeing that 19 seems to have carved a niche to itself online and has fans there, it isn't hard to imagine that F-100 would fit about as well but on the other side of the fence. It would also make a quite nice fighter bomber.

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, WinterH said:

Hun is a cool aircraft, and of the kind that is one of my favorites in DCS. I'd really welcome one. It'd go really well with MiG-19, and seeing that 19 seems to have carved a niche to itself online and has fans there, it isn't hard to imagine that F-100 would fit about as well but on the other side of the fence. It would also make a quite nice fighter bomber.

The hun is really high on my wish list. 

[Harlikwin]

3 hours ago, upyr1 said:

I believe the Mirage 2k entered service in 1984. So it was late cold war. So I figured our version was late 80s early 90s. I wasn't sure. 

I would love it if we could do it while we have some Hun veterans with us.

The RDM entered service then (kinda), they had 2 squadrons of them IIRC. So like 30 planes. for "the cold war". RDI entered service in late 87 as did the 530D. So really more like 88 before they were up to speed, and the CW ended in 89, so not really relevant. 

And I will absolutely make that same argument for all the F-teen variants that entered service in 87-89. (that would be C ones generally)

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Harlikwin

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

The RDM entered service then (kinda), they had 2 squadrons of them IIRC. So like 30 planes. for "the cold war". RDI entered service in late 87 as did the 530D. So really more like 88 before they were up to speed, and the CW ended in 89, so not really relevant. 

And I will absolutely make that same argument for all the F-teen variants that entered service in 87-89. (that would be C ones generally)

 

 

That was the time frame right at the end and really ideal for Desert Storm.

[Harlikwin]

8 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

That was the time frame right at the end and really ideal for Desert Storm.

Yeah all those planes are "perfect" for ODS... But literally irrelevant for the cold war. If you are realistic about it the cold war ended in 87-88 for all practical purposes, fall of the berlin wall in 89 was just the public acknowledgment of it. 

[Rick50]

I guess one issue is that the "Cold War" spans such a long time that entire aircraft service in some cases occupy a tiny sliver of that era... the B-58 Hustler was in many ways an amazing aircraft, yet served from 1960 to 1970, and by the 1980's was all but forgotten. XB-70 was forgotten so very quickly after the crash. Contrast that with the B-52, which won't just outlive the Hustler, but also the Bone (heading into retirement as we speak, jjust too expensive to keep operational), Intruders, Aardvark, Vulcans, TSR-2's, Mirage IV, Vigilante, Buckaneers and Tornadoes, Jaguars, Blinder, Badger ... current projections are that the B-52 and DC-3 / C-47 Dakota in civil aviation, will both still be doing operational flights at 100 years of age. Maybe the Badger will live on beside the BUFF and Dakota, with fresh Chinese aluminium in the form of the Xian H-6. 

 

The Cold War is much richer for game and simulation scenarios if one allows for hypothetical events... we certainly had a great many close calls, and flashpoints that could have lit a giant fuse. It's not much of a stretch to say that almost anywhere on the planet might have see a cold war gone hot.

 

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

Yeah all those planes are "perfect" for ODS... But literally irrelevant for the cold war. If you are realistic about it the cold war ended in 87-88 for all practical purposes, fall of the berlin wall in 89 was just the public acknowledgment of it. 

Since DCS isn't strictly limited to actual history, I don't think we need to worry too much about the precise date of when something came into service. It's perfectly fine to extend the Cold War a couple years in the name of what if scenarios (unless of course the goal is historical recreation).

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

Yeah all those planes are "perfect" for ODS... But literally irrelevant for the cold war. If you are realistic about it the cold war ended in 87-88 for all practical purposes, fall of the berlin wall in 89 was just the public acknowledgment of it. 

Anyhow I think we can agree Eagle and the other developers need to focus on modules that entered service before 1986. There are limits on what RedFor aircraft we can get, and as I keep saying a good online ecosystem consists of at least two opposing modules, assets and a map.  As that allows for PVP instead of PVE. 

[Harlikwin]

37 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Since DCS isn't strictly limited to actual history, I don't think we need to worry too much about the precise date of when something came into service. It's perfectly fine to extend the Cold War a couple years in the name of what if scenarios (unless of course the goal is historical recreation).

nope...  thats the road to heresy. 

13 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

Anyhow I think we can agree Eagle and the other developers need to focus on modules that entered service before 1986. There are limits on what RedFor aircraft we can get, and as I keep saying a good online ecosystem consists of at least two opposing modules, assets and a map.  As that allows for PVP instead of PVE. 

We are 1000% on the same page. 

[upyr1]

57 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Since DCS isn't strictly limited to actual history, I don't think we need to worry too much about the precise date of when something came into service. It's perfectly fine to extend the Cold War a couple years in the name of what if scenarios (unless of course the goal is historical recreation).

Valid point, we can turn off historical mode and do what ifs 

Edited July 25, 2022 by upyr1

[Northstar98]

Quote

Since DCS isn't strictly limited to actual history, I don't think we need to worry too much about the precise date of when something came into service. It's perfectly fine to extend the Cold War a couple years in the name of what if scenarios (unless of course the goal is historical recreation).

Yeah, but in most cases in this thread, the goal probably is more along the lines of historical recreation/inspired by historical events, or are otherwise supposed to be set at a certain point in time, but not necessarily historically accurate (such as say, Red Storm Rising-like scenarios).

Edited August 4, 2022 by Northstar98

[Evoman]

17 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Well, the F1 is certainly cold war even though we have the lastest greatest 80's version. 

The M2k we have generally speaking is not. Its basically a 90's era bird. You only had a small amount of RDI and 530D equipped mirages flying in like 88, so like for the last year of the cold war which hardly makes it representative. And even the earlier RDM radar birds were so few in actual number to kinda make the whole thing moot. Though I'd welcome a early 80's RDM M2000 with Super 530F's. 

Just to be clear there will be 4 F-1 variants in total. The first one we are getting, the CE was delivered to Spain between 1975 and 1981. According to the developer it will have the Cyrano IV-M radar, a unique Cold War era radar in DCS.

The latest and greatest would be the F1M upgrade which is also planed and were delivered in 1999-2001.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Evoman

[F-2]

15 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

The RDM entered service then (kinda), they had 2 squadrons of them IIRC. So like 30 planes. for "the cold war". RDI entered service in late 87 as did the 530D. So really more like 88 before they were up to speed, and the CW ended in 89, so not really relevant. 

And I will absolutely make that same argument for all the F-teen variants that entered service in 87-89. (that would be C ones generally)

 

 

The sea harrier wasn’t really ready in 1982 but they put their foot down and sent it to the Falklands. Given that we are not simulating a real historical event I think it would be hard to argue with that.

 

also Iraq has several kills listed for the Super 530d as opposed to 530f in 1988.

[Harlikwin]

2 hours ago, F-2 said:

The sea harrier wasn’t really ready in 1982 but they put their foot down and sent it to the Falklands. Given that we are not simulating a real historical event I think it would be hard to argue with that.

 

also Iraq has several kills listed for the Super 530d as opposed to 530f in 1988.

Well... Funny you should mention that iraqi "story". Cuz that "story" originated with the Iranians, and even Tom Cooper that originally related it has recanted it later. The RDM had to be modified to work with 530D. And the Cyrano was not capable of guiding it AFAIK.

 

With regards to the SHAR, that was what it was. My point about the "cold war" is that politically speaking it basically ended somewhere in the early or mid 80's. By like 1987 any chance of war was a political impossibility. Though amusingly there was a very good possibility of things going warm in 83.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Harlikwin

[twistking]

Hello,
i'm quite excited about the upcoming Mirage F1M because i did not really know about this mdoernized variant before. I think it's really cool for combining (some) modern avionics and hopefully decent combat performance while still being manually flown and generally a vintage airframe.

Now i wonder what other singleseat aircraft are there similar to the F1M in having no FBW but updated avionics to make them somewhat capable in a modern-ish battlespace.
A-10c comes to mind obviously (already in DCS. Hooray), Mig-29 (only A version coming, but still...). What else is out there? (single seat, no FBW, updated/modernized to a 90s standard roughly)

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

7 hours ago, Evoman said:

Just to be clear there will be 4 F-1 variants in total. The first one we are getting, the CE was delivered to Spain between 1975 and 1981. According to the developer it will have the Cyrano IV-M radar, a unique Cold War era radar in DCS.

The latest and greatest would be the F1M upgrade which is also planed and were delivered in 1999-2001.

 

 

6 minutes ago, twistking said:

Hello,
i'm quite excited about the upcoming Mirage F1M because i did not really know about this mdoernized variant before. I think it's really cool for combining (some) modern avionics and hopefully decent combat performance while still being manually flown and generally a vintage airframe.

Now i wonder what other singleseat aircraft are there similar to the F1M in having no FBW but updated avionics to make them somewhat capable in a modern-ish battlespace.
A-10c comes to mind obviously (already in DCS. Hooray), Mig-29 (only A version coming, but still...). What else is out there? (single seat, no FBW, updated/modernized to a 90s standard roughly)

It should be noted F1M airframes were scoring great grades for bombing competitions for Spanish Air Forces, rivals including Harrier and EF-18 Hornet.

[Exorcet]

10 minutes ago, twistking said:

Now i wonder what other singleseat aircraft are there similar to the F1M in having no FBW but updated avionics to make them somewhat capable in a modern-ish battlespace.

It's not terribly uncommon. the F-4, F-5, MiG-21 for instance all have various modernized upgrades, some even including active missiles. There are also some specialized aircraft developed by smaller nations that might fit into the same niche like the F-CK-1, it's a little newer than the others, but same idea.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Exorcet

[Harlikwin]

5 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

It's not terribly uncommon. the F-4, F-5, MiG-21 for instance all have various modernized upgrades, some even including active missiles. There are also some specialized aircraft developed by smaller nations that might fit into the same niche like the F-CK-1, it's a little newer than the others, but same idea.

 

Yeah you can lua hack modern missiles onto the mig21 for example and it does quite well with them. Its not gonna win a turn fight with a viper etc, but as long you can get to the merge you got a pretty good shot. And IRL thats more or less what the indians and romanians have done with their various mig21 upgrades. 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Harlikwin