Proposal for a new user interface

[ngreenaway]

Then bring up logic and instead attacks or moot points "bad" in that idea thread.

 

 

 

DCS is not Xplane.

 

 

Your argument fails. You can not take your bad experience from the Xplane and say that you don't want DCS menu get changed better because you got bad experience in Xplane.

 

 

I clearly struck a raw nerve. Thankfully, DCS isn’t Xplane. Thankfully we use a mouse to navigate the UI and not a controller *of any type*. Frankly, the status quo is likely the simplest system we’re likely to see, and for that reason theres no impetus to change it

 

 

It benefits all users who has HOTAS. Every user who is using any joystick with one hat and anyways uses multipliers as well.

 

 

You would never need to use mouse to get quickly to flying, connected to multiplayer etc. Your joystick that is your main gaming device in DCS, is one option for your instrument as well for the main menu.

 

 

Youre offering a solution that’s in search of a problem. It doesn’t benefit anyone by complicating the scheme that we use to navigate a very basic menu system. A mouse is what every user is familiar with using. It seriously isn’t that difficult, even in vr, to use a mouse for menus, and then switch to controls in flight. Then, the mouse is right where you left it, if you need it again.

 

 

Your joystick currently is 100% useless in any menus, other than checking what binding you had where in the configuration place.

 

 

As well it should be.

 

 

These days every game is designed around from the main menu to the end to be used with the primary gaming device. And DCS is not to be flied with keyboard and mouse. The mouse and keyboard while are critical as a backup controllers for players who has just a joystick and limited other input options available, but it shouldn't be the requirement to handle the game basics.

 

 

 

Sorry, but every VR user out there dreams that they would be able to raise their hand and press buttons and flip switches in their virtual cockpit.

 

 

No more attaching any devices to your hands/fingers.

 

No sweaty gloves.

 

No special hand controllers.

 

No looking around mouse cursor locked to your center view.

 

No searching a mouse on lap or next to joystick/throttle and chasing the cursor.

 

 

That’s a very broad statement. It’s a pipe dream that certainly isn’t served by navigating thru a menu using a hotas. Those other statements have zero relevance to redesigning the UI

 

 

 

Have you ever freed yourself from the mouse and keyboard in the DCS cockpit? That is huge immersion addition when you are not pointing a mouse cursor around cockpit to do something, or press buttons on keyboard.

 

 

No, because for what we have, it’s a very acceptable compromise. Compromises are inherent in the experience, which is why my stick and throttle feel the same regardless of the airframe im flying .

 

 

The same thing is when you get away from the multipliers and unrealistic bindings in your HOTAS for functions that doesn't belong to there in the real aircraft. Meaning if you want to raise gear, you literally move your hand to the cockpit position where the lever is and you raise it.

 

Want to press the flaps positions, you move your hand to that position. Need to set the radar mode to something else, you literally move your hand there.

 

 

Immersion is far lower when you just do multiplier press on joystick or you point your mouse around.

 

 

True, but this has little to do with navigating through the UI menu. I don’t need the UI menu to act like anything but a GUI. There isn’t any immersion when navigating through it, but then *none is needed*

 

 

The 90's style to do the game menus was to have a interesting style. It is following the glorious GUI era where all things were wanted to be put visible and be "semi-realistic" by using skeuomorph.

 

 

The style was interesting, but held interest only the first few times you were exposed to it. That design has been relegated to the era. Its not in use anymore, and that’s just fine- it didn’t bring a lot to the table in terms of streamlined usability. It traded intuitiveness for atmosphere

 

 

 

And today we have something worse....

 

 

 

[ATTACH]237311[/ATTACH]

 

 

That’s a very subjective statement. It’s a rather clean setup, with important areas clearly labelled and grouped together in one spot. Because it looks and acts similar to a windows desktop, the mouse is the easiest way to navigate it. Anyone can grab a mouse and navigate their way thru the menus. Things like creating instant action missions become more complicated when using anything but a mouse.

 

The situation has gone from good to terrible, to pretty.

 

Still required to use a mouse, keyboard in the era of the HOTAS setups.

 

 

 

A mouse is still the easiest, most intuitive way to navigate menus

 

 

 

And being able to go in the main menus and common windows with just HOTAS is nothing more than huge improvement.

 

 

 

I don’t see how changing a UI to be used from a very common device that we all use in order to navigate menus, to a more complex less-obvious solution is an improvement

 

 

 

Something that would take a couple days from a good programmer to implement as everything in the game is really in the place.

 

 

 

It is simply a reorganization, and reimplementation of existing features in a new way.

 

 

 

Reinventing the wheel, only to make it square rather than round sounds like a great use of programmer hours

[Kang]

But at least in the nineties it was obvious where to go to start the game.

Now, as I said, I did like these things in the old 90s simulators, but I still totally fail to understand your point. Having the whole 'picture airbase' instead of a menu doesn't solve that problem. It merely adds to it, because on top of reading the menu and figuring out what does what, you now also have to figure out which 'department' the particular menu you looked for is supposed to belong to (and not all of those are very logical, really), plus - even if that doesn't deter you - as a new player you wouldn't even know which parts of this picture are a thing to begin with.

 

In all seriousness, there is a menu point 'Training' that is quite clear in where a good place to start is. Whoever needs a flashing neon pop-up saying 'Start here!' next to it to find it, is quite frankly most unlikely to have a lot of fun in DCS.

[ngreenaway]

I haven't switched over to VR yet, so I didn't really consider that angle. I suppose it makes a bit more sense in that case.

 

 

 

I don't mind having to use keys and mouse though, I spend a lot of time in the DCS Mission editor, so I'd probably be using those regardless.

 

 

I'm not against options for more menus, but I don't want to be pushed into a change as what we have now works for me.

 

It's not hard. I fly in VR only. Keep your mouse between your stick & throttle or some other place where u can reach it by feel and it's like normal without goggles. When you're using your computer for other things, how often do you really have to look at (or for) your mouse?

In vr, the keyboard is a little more complicated but this thread is about the UI....which you don't need your keyboard for at all. For flight, I have little 1/4" self adhesive nubs that I stick onto certain keys that I use a lot. Other keys I remember their location in relation to those nubs.

[ngreenaway]

Whoever needs a flashing neon pop-up saying 'Start here!' next to it to find it, is quite frankly most unlikely to have a lot of fun in DCS.

 

There's a lot of truth to that statement

[Buzzles]

Regarding the OP's suggestions, imo there's not enough options on the current menu to warrant encapsulating them into sub sections atm.

 

Even then, I'd rather see side navs coming out from the current right hand menu strip than dive into new screens.

 

As a further opinion, the section titles in the OP are not that clear at all, and are actually harder to understand by trying to be themed rather than just clear words.

[Eldur]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=270546&highlight=menu

 

Your module list with all those nice wishlist items in there lacks the Tornado which baffles me

 

No more attaching any devices to your hands/fingers.

No sweaty gloves.

No special hand controllers.

No looking around mouse cursor locked to your center view.

No searching a mouse on lap or next to joystick/throttle and chasing the cursor.

 

Well, we're getting there already:

 

 

 

Give this another two or three years and it probably will be fleshed out in the next gen VR devices. But as always, you'll get no haptic feedback. Those controllers at least can vibrate.

[Fri13]

I clearly struck a raw nerve. Thankfully, DCS isn’t Xplane. Thankfully we use a mouse to navigate the UI and not a controller *of any type*. Frankly, the status quo is likely the simplest system we’re likely to see, and for that reason theres no impetus to change it

 

You didn't. You just didn't bring anything logical on the table.

The status quo is not enough and not great. Sorry but it is simple as that.

My idea is based the current design because it is simplest way to improve things without really going through much trouble at all.

 

And ED needs to start taking VR far more seriously, they have implemented a Claptoglove support, that no one is using. Instead they could implement a HOTAS system that major percentage of their customers are using, even on desktop only.

 

 

Youre offering a solution that’s in search of a problem. It doesn’t benefit anyone by complicating the scheme that we use to navigate a very basic menu system.

 

Your arguments:

 

1) no one would benefit from it

2) only make things more complicated

3) and current is very basic menu system.

 

All are false.

 

A mouse is what every user is familiar with using.

 

Yes, why to buy those HOTAS controllers for hundreds if not even thousands when everyone is just familiar to use mouse and keyboard to fly their favorite aircrafts?

Why to invest to a VR technologies when everyone has a display and are very familiar how to use it?

 

It seriously isn’t that difficult, even in vr, to use a mouse for menus, and then switch to controls in flight. Then, the mouse is right where you left it, if you need it again.

 

I don't use mouse for anything else than more complex mission editor tasking. Everything else I do with Oculus touch controllers.

And there are even now growing amount of people who are purchasing equippment like PointCTRL: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=273742

 

In the future what you need as these gloves:

is gone. Because what you need is this:

 

And if Eagle Dynamics would have already years ago implemented support for Leap Motion controller, when those devices costed under 20€ (now you pay over 100€), we would have this!

and we would have better usability:

 

More of that in: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=218484

 

 

While these systems allows to operate the DCS menu and other interfaces as a mouse, it is from usability point as bad as any mouse. It would be far better for many cases just to use your hand on your joystick or throttle where it is anyways.

 

There are special cases where people build complete simulator pits. And they need to find a way to get a mouse in it. Many recommends a trackball but those ain't really good options than just for "I dropped my mouse" fixing. Some will just use a wireless touchpad for same thing.

They lack the immersion and you anyways need to start to move a small cursor to get clicking the menu floating in the air. While all that you would need to do is to keep your hand on stick or/and throttle and use two hats to move around the menu.

 

In my idea I didn't streamline the menu system (that I would do) because I kept it as minimal workload for the developers to implement and to do. Couple steps could be cut off just in the process to get from main menu to cockpit and flying. And each eliminated step is huge improvement to usability. But this thread is not about it, but about main menu ideas to change.

 

These days every game is designed around from the main menu to the end to be used with the primary gaming device. And DCS is not to be flied with keyboard and mouse. The mouse and keyboard while are critical as a backup controllers for players who has just a joystick and limited other input options available, but it shouldn't be the requirement to handle the game basics either. My idea is not to replace mouse or keyboard, it is just to add an additional means to operate the menu without requiring player to include a mouse in the VR / Sim Pit setups.

 

That’s a very broad statement. It’s a pipe dream that certainly isn’t served by navigating thru a menu using a hotas. Those other statements have zero relevance to redesigning the UI

 

All that you see is "There is no problems, DCS menu is perfect as is because I am super familiar with it and I do not consider any other use case to the need to redesign the menu system, even in near future".

 

 

No, because for what we have, it’s a very acceptable compromise. Compromises are inherent in the experience, which is why my stick and throttle feel the same regardless of the airframe im flying .

 

Funny thing how people are exactly for that reason ready to invest to Virpil, VKB and even Thrustmaster, so that they can buy special grips modeled after real different aircrafts...

 

You might think it is acceptable compromise that people are forever required to include a keyboard and mouse just to get flying.

Before ED enabled the virtual gloves, they were there. You couldn't move them first or click with them anything. Then they became movable, but it took long time they became possible be used to click things.

And that was the moment when I stopped using keyboard and mouse all together in VR. Before that I used the "HMD Mouse" and binded HOTAS to press left/right clicks etc. But it doesn't work well as you need to look everything that you want to click.

Before that it was HOTAS bindings behind multipliers, and even then many things were just better left to be done with keyboard when using TrackIR.

 

True, but this has little to do with navigating through the UI menu. I don’t need the UI menu to act like anything but a GUI. There isn’t any immersion when navigating through it, but then *none is needed*[/quot€]

 

Have you ever counted how many different buttons and dialogues you need to go through from getting flying from the desktop, get to see your configs, pause game and reread the briefing etc?

 

The style was interesting, but held interest only the first few times you were exposed to it. That design has been relegated to the era. Its not in use anymore, and that’s just fine- it didn’t bring a lot to the table in terms of streamlined usability. It traded intuitiveness for atmosphere

 

One word that people misuse is "intuitive". It is literally "familiar". People has these fantasy ideas that something is "intuitive" so they just "know how to use it" because that something "explains to them what they need to do to use it". Nothing can be done intuitively. It is these things that Sci-Fi movies has like someone comes from the different time or part of galaxy and they look the futuristic user interface they have never used and they just know how to use it in seconds.

 

The experience is required to learn lots of all kind basics, and all that leads to be familiar with all that you see, hear etc in your life depending your memory. And if you are not familiar with something, you are not going to learn how to use it just by using it when it becomes more complex. And DCS main menu is already very complex thing that many would find difficult to get through at their first times.

 

Lots of things are taken granted, even the mouse and keyboard that are very difficult for many that has even used them for years! Because people are not really so interested about computers or their interfaces, but what they can do with them.

 

Like things that many of us takes easy:

or

etc.

 

That’s a very subjective statement.

 

I must give up as you do not understand the problem.

 

A mouse is still the easiest, most intuitive way to navigate menus

 

Touching is easiest way to operate. Since the birth we learn to touch things. Pinching is one of the most basic skills we learn in few months old.

This is why computer world is so driven to touch interfaces, but they go in many ways completely wrong. Like have you ever used a Windows (any windows, even current 10) with a touch screen? It is terrible design and experience compared to example iOS use on iPad. We can take three tablets and put there Android, iOS and Windows, and the Windows is the most terrible.

 

Physical keyboard? How many has written multipage document with a touchscreen? Bad experience compared to having a physical keyboard.

Writing a document with physical keyboard is one of the most efficient ways to do it, but you don't use mouse with it. The be powerful you do it with just keyboard and shortcuts. You leave the mouse away from that operation as it just gets on your way. Have you ever used a Vi, Emacs or written papers using example LaTex? Far great experiences than using a Microsoft Word or similars.

 

More experienced one comes, then more complex systems are wanted for the efficiency and to easy things.

 

Have you tried to draw graphics with a computer mouse? Not a great experience, especially when compared to a digital pen on tablet. A drawing tablet is nice thing but it is still separated from the visuals you are doing as it is on your lap or table and screen is front of you. Why drawing directly on the screen is a lot better way. And yet nothing beats in the feel the real thing.

 

For a web browsing, file management, launching applications etc, keyboard is most often far superior than computer mouse. And mouse is nicer than digital pen. When one learns to use different tools in different way than what commonly people do, they can become far more efficient and doing things becomes easier.

 

In normal Windows desktop use one needs rarely take hands away from the keyboard and use a mouse. As lots of things can be done simply by tapping keys and using various combinations.

 

But now you ask what has this to do with the DCS menu? A lot. Because different methods are difficult for many to understand before the experience them.

And have you experienced how it feels to use DCS menu with just joystick hats? It is far nicer experience, faster, easier, simpler and more efficient. Just using two hats (or one with shift, or just one with redesigning menu structure) one can quickly move and use DCS. Again, it is not for a mission editing, as that experience is same as creating flight plan using KABRIS (and even that is very simple thing compared to many other aircrafts like Hornet, Viper, Warthog) when you use a actual physical controller for its use, as the five buttons and one rotary makes it completely different experience than using a computer mouse.

If you are not familiar how KABRIS is used, Grim Reapers has OKish video about it:

 

But again, even binding those things to HOTAS is far nicer experience than using mouse.

And it would be very nice to be able click buttons by pointing finger on them (even when hand goes through air) and pinching the dial and turn it accurately. It would be ultimate experience when flying.

 

I don’t see how changing a UI to be used from a very common device that we all use in order to navigate menus, to a more complex less-obvious solution is an improvement

 

That is the problem, you don't see it.

 

Reinventing the wheel, only to make it square rather than round sounds like a great use of programmer hours

 

Do you think that ED doesn't have various kind people working for their different tasks in their products and services? Not all of them are allocated to same tasks. There are even those who are responsible for menu and various levels and times. You can consider that is "reinventing the wheel" like how they did with the new bindings mouse right click menu, but for many it is important.

 

We can always go back to captogloves:

 

 

As everyone must have those to be reason invest time to implement the support, while almost everyone using HOTAS needs to grab a mouse just to get a basic things done like getting to fly....

 

And if so far you have not got anything, you will not even understand that once we get hand tracking etc system in DCS. We want to start using menus with them (that doesn't mean we must be great using mission editor in its current state), and that means one thing as well - redesigning the interface to support hand operations.

 

And at that point it might even come more useful to have a GUI that is like the old 90's games.

As already the current VR experience could be made much better in main menu, but it being usable (you get things done) doesn't mean it is acceptable or preferred even with the computer mouse.

 

We might want to start having something else,

 

We need to as well accept that the current generation are more and more unaware of the computer mouse. Kids these days use smartphones and tablets far more than laptops or workstations. A computer mouse is fairly unfamiliar experience. They have learn to touch screens, make selections just by pointing it. They can do complex things with smartphones, write messages, take photos, record videos, attach those to messages, draw images on photos, play games using even a joypad or joystick etc. But when you give them a computer mouse and keyboard, they get lost. Too complex devices, unfamiliar, illogical.

 

When players in DCS come to point they use HOTAS for flying complex aircrafts, then it is just bad design when they can't get around a simple menu without a mouse.

[Fri13]

Your module list with all those nice wishlist items in there lacks the Tornado which baffles me

 

That is acceptable argument, you are free to downvote it ;)

 

Give this another two or three years and it probably will be fleshed out in the next gen VR devices. But as always, you'll get no haptic feedback. Those controllers at least can vibrate.

 

In the shooting games I want to have an actual physical grip and trigger. No pointing fingers etc acceptable. For a rifle like weapons it must be a stock kind device as that just makes it possible be used effectively, unlike trying to hold something with two free controllers.

 

But when the hand tracking comes, we can eliminate the need for controllers as is. We can even pretend a small plastic toy gun is a actual gun, as our hands as that item is tracked. And now we can come to point that we can have a physical item with a feedback system, but nothing to be used for tracked, but still connected with wireless tech to tell when to vibrate etc.

 

The DCS supports to fly many aircrafts with just the touch controllers, like in VR VTOL. So you can grab throttle and stick with them and fly. But same way as with guns, I want physical controllers. I want to rest my hand on lap while holding cyclic. Nothing can offer that virtually. But, thinking that hands gets tracked and noticed when they are raised for pointing etc, it is ultimatum.

 

Having experienced the hand tracking with virtual physical environment makes huge immersion. As we can start using more a muscle memory for switching and pressing buttons. The DCS flight experience goes multifolded far better in that moment when one can just raise hand and press buttons and pinch knobs and rotate them, and then grab the real HOTAS.

 

I am just still amazed how ED has not implemented the Leap Motion support. I would even send mine if it would help to start supporting it.

 

 

Even if we would see those virtual skeleton hands in the VR cockpit would be a MAJOR thing....

Edited May 26, 2020 by Fri13

[Top Jockey]

To the OP: fully agree.

 

Throwback to the nineties... though I don’t exactly remember which game / sim in my souvenirs had the same idea.

 

Let me guess one of them:

 

" iF/A-18E Carrier Strike Fighter " from 1998 (by Interactive Magic)...

[iborg]

To the OP: fully agree.

 

 

 

Let me guess one of them:

 

" iF/A-18E Carrier Strike Fighter " from 1998 (by Interactive Magic)...

 

Didn't know that one (I played the F-18 game on Mac tho). Think it was actually F-16 Combat Pilot on Amstrad CPC6128 :)

[Napa]

There is nothing wrong with the UI of the main menu.

 

Other pages need to increase or have responsive window sizes, such as instant missions, logbook, etc.

 

And I'm wondering if there is a way to hide modules that are not installed on my DCS to get rid of that annoying carousel at the bottom.

[ngreenaway]

There is nothing wrong with the UI of the main menu..

 

Careful with such heresy. It's not an acceptable opinion here that the UI is fine as it is

[ebabil]

 

 

[ATTACH]237309[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

a sidewinder tone came to my ears :(

[Northstar98]

There is nothing wrong with the UI of the main menu.

 

Agreed.

 

Sorry Fri13, but I'm with ngreenway and Innerloop on this one. The current menu just works very well for me and I see nothing wrong with it and no need to fix something that IMO does everything I want it to do in a clear, clean and logical way.

 

These days every game is designed around from the main menu to the end to be used with the primary gaming device. And DCS is not to be flied with keyboard and mouse.

 

Not once have I come across any flight sim that allowed me to navigate its menu with a joystick, not sure why I would even want to do that when I'd probably be a lot more accurate and faster using a mouse...

 

Think about it, I want to create a mission (something I do every time I start DCS) I'd use the mouse to start DCS, then I'd take my hands of the mouse and use the joystick to use the menu, then back off the stick and back onto the mouse to edit a mission - and if you're going to add something that's clearly not as efficient as the mouse to go about doing things why bother? Just keep the current menu and add VR support...

 

One word that people misuse is "intuitive". It is literally "familiar". People has these fantasy ideas that something is "intuitive" so they just "know how to use it" because that something "explains to them what they need to do to use it". Nothing can be done intuitively.

 

I'm sorry what? "Nothing can be done intuitively" what are you talking about?

 

The current menu is intuitive because it's so easy to use, I instinctively recognise a gear icon as meaning settings or options, so it's intuitive navigating to settings. I understood and was able to use all the items of the current menu without instruction, just based on what you can essentially describe as instinct or what I felt made sense. "but this is just familiarity, you're familiar with these things" yes, but it's also the dictionary definition of intuitive, as I was able to use my intuition alone to understand what everything meant/does. So not a misused word, instead one that is being used perfectly accurately.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Northstar98

[Napa]

Careful with such heresy. It's not an acceptable opinion here that the UI is fine as it is

 

 

I'm a UI/UX designer and I do this for a living. Perhaps my opinion counts for something??

 

 

I wouldn't say its perfect, however, usability wise, everything is where its suppose to be. Some tweaks and adjustments can be made here and there to reduce a few clicks, but nothing drastic.

 

 

Plus, changing a 10 year old interface would not have a positive impact on its users. Just because someone made a complain 10 years later doesn't mean it has to change. These changes happen in the first 3 months after countless complains.

[ngreenaway]

I'm a UI/UX designer and I do this for a living. Perhaps my opinion counts for something??

 

 

 

Perhaps you should read my previous posts in this thread, it may change how you interpret my response to your previous post