Roll SAS in BFM

[veenee]

I am not sure if this was discussed before (I guess it was ;-) ) but I always have been switching Roll SAS off before going into a dogfight.

However, I watched Keith 'Okie' Nance Q&A session recently, and he said it was not a good idea to switch it off:

 

 

So..... on or off?

[Snappy]

Do it whatever way you want.

It doesn't make a huge difference in my personal opinion .I've tried both. Recently I fly with it on.

 

Regards,

 

Snappy

Edited June 12, 2020 by Snappy

[veenee]

I'll probably leave it on for now.... guy with 4900h in F-14 can't be wrong, can he? ;)

[ZeroReady]

Doesn't lifting the red ACM cover also disable one or 2 of the channels? Or is it the Autopilot disconnect paddle?

[TLTeo]

Doesn't lifting the red ACM cover also disable one or 2 of the channels? Or is it the Autopilot disconnect paddle?

 

 

That's AP disconnect. It's interesting that Okie would mention it; my understanding was that roll SAS can cause problems at high AoA, which is why it's disabled. Maybe it's one of those things that isn't SOP but changes between squadrons, or over time.

[eatthis]

ingame it gets funky rolling at high aoa with the roll sas on, its not massive and if i forget it i just leave it but it is noticable,

also having ap on does funny things inverted

[Victory205]

We turned it off. Okie was an aberration, and was taking a risk that required different control inputs. He was also senior, and didn’t exactly advertise what he was doing.

 

Same with the discussion on using full flaps. The torque tubes would consistently break, and it was quite easy to see if your opponent was using full flaps. The only place that would typically made sense was a flat scissors in a 1v1. Was it worth the risk to come back to the ship with split or a flap lockout in the North Atlantic with no diverts and a pitching deck? Do that a couple of times and you’re going to be questioned and even grounded for a while.

 

Breaking jets didn’t not enhance mission readiness and was a big deal for obvious reasons. One of the pilots most of you worship constantly over stressed during demos, was counseled and was and still is hated by the maintenance troops, operations officers and his peers for his selfishness. Taking a jet out of service for a week because of ego isn’t respected at all.

 

I cross controlled to get a better roll rate at high alpha. Some guys didn’t. I had long experience and understood the nuance and was smooth and judicious with the controls. I thoroughly understood from the aircraft response when to neutralize the lateral stick. The Tomcat was wonderful with buffet feedback cues. It did not jeopardize the flap/slat system nor was it dangerous with Roll SAS off.

 

One of my squadron mates got an F14A into a flat spin and had to eject in the early 1990’s. The RIO’s seat didn’t leave the aircraft, and for whatever reason, he didn’t try a manual bailout. He rode the aircraft to his death, on the radio the whole way down. The pilot was our NATOPS officer, was very conservative and conscientious, but to this day, my pilot bud is haunted because he feels like he left the Roll SAS on and departed as a result. I see him a few times per year, we work for the same company. He is not the happy go lucky man that he once was.

 

Do what you want in DCS, there is no price. I turn it off. It doesn’t make a difference in typical engagements.

[Redliner7]

We turned it off. Okie was an aberration, and was taking a risk that required different control inputs. He was also senior, and didn’t exactly advertise what he was doing.

 

 

 

Same with the discussion on using full flaps. The torque tubes would consistently break, and it was quite easy to see if your opponent was using full flaps. The only place that would typically made sense was a flat scissors in a 1v1. Was it worth the risk to come back to the ship with split or a flap lockout in the North Atlantic with no diverts and a pitching deck? Do that a couple of times and you’re going to be questioned and even grounded for a while.

 

 

 

Breaking jets didn’t not enhance mission readiness and was a big deal for obvious reasons. One of the pilots most of you worship constantly over stressed during demos, was counseled and was and still is hated by the maintenance troops, operations officers and his peers for his selfishness. Taking a jet out of service for a week because of ego isn’t respected at all.

 

 

 

I cross controlled to get a better roll rate at high alpha. Some guys didn’t. I had long experience and understood the nuance and was smooth and judicious with the controls. I thoroughly understood from the aircraft response when to neutralize the lateral stick. The Tomcat was wonderful with buffet feedback cues. It did not jeopardize the flap/slat system nor was it dangerous with Roll SAS off.

 

 

 

One of my squadron mates got an F14A into a flat spin and had to eject in the early 1990’s. The RIO’s seat didn’t leave the aircraft, and for whatever reason, he didn’t try a manual bailout. He rode the aircraft to his death, on the radio the whole way down. The pilot was our NATOPS officer, was very conservative and conscientious, but to this day, my pilot bud is haunted because he feels like he left the Roll SAS on and departed as a result. I see him a few times per year, we work for the same company. He is not the happy go lucky man that he once was.

 

 

 

Do what you want in DCS, there is no price. I turn it off. It doesn’t make a difference in typical engagements.

I really enjoy reading your insight on the Tomcat along with some of the little tidbits on some of the pilots you know within the your community as well.

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[eatthis]

We turned it off. Okie was an aberration, and was taking a risk that required different control inputs. He was also senior, and didn’t exactly advertise what he was doing.

 

Same with the discussion on using full flaps. The torque tubes would consistently break, and it was quite easy to see if your opponent was using full flaps. The only place that would typically made sense was a flat scissors in a 1v1. Was it worth the risk to come back to the ship with split or a flap lockout in the North Atlantic with no diverts and a pitching deck? Do that a couple of times and you’re going to be questioned and even grounded for a while.

 

Breaking jets didn’t not enhance mission readiness and was a big deal for obvious reasons. One of the pilots most of you worship constantly over stressed during demos, was counseled and was and still is hated by the maintenance troops, operations officers and his peers for his selfishness. Taking a jet out of service for a week because of ego isn’t respected at all.

 

I cross controlled to get a better roll rate at high alpha. Some guys didn’t. I had long experience and understood the nuance and was smooth and judicious with the controls. I thoroughly understood from the aircraft response when to neutralize the lateral stick. The Tomcat was wonderful with buffet feedback cues. It did not jeopardize the flap/slat system nor was it dangerous with Roll SAS off.

 

One of my squadron mates got an F14A into a flat spin and had to eject in the early 1990’s. The RIO’s seat didn’t leave the aircraft, and for whatever reason, he didn’t try a manual bailout. He rode the aircraft to his death, on the radio the whole way down. The pilot was our NATOPS officer, was very conservative and conscientious, but to this day, my pilot bud is haunted because he feels like he left the Roll SAS on and departed as a result. I see him a few times per year, we work for the same company. He is not the happy go lucky man that he once was.

 

Do what you want in DCS, there is no price. I turn it off. It doesn’t make a difference in typical engagements.

 

 

 

1 when you say cross controlled do you mean a little bit of roll along with backstick? if so i do the same ingame alogn with rudder obviously.

2 that ejection story is rough!!

3 if a pilot bins an aircraft and its deemed his fault what action is normally taken against him? ive heard the raf are pretty brutal when it comes to expensive mistakes

[veenee]

Thank you Victory, I kind of hoped for your input :-)

 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Edited June 13, 2020 by veenee

[Kula66]

Very interesting Victory, thanks for the insight - excellent as usual!

[Reflected]

Victory, by cross control do you mean you rolled with the rudder? When I pull high alphas with the roll sas off, the wings start to rock, kind of like a dutch roll? Why is that an how do you counter it?

[Sam]

Cross control means that you put the stick opposite to the rudder.

For example if you want to turn to the right at high alpha, you put left stick and right rudder.

[Reflected]

Cross control means that you put the stick opposite to the rudder.

For example if you want to turn to the right at high alpha, you put left stick and right rudder.

 

That would help stall the right wing with the aileron and snap to the right. But Tomcats had spoilers, so left stick meant left spoilers and that doesn't "stall" the right wing. Or, did it have the same effect on the stabilators so it worked like on a plane with ailerons?

[RustBelt]

At high alpha the Stabilator is going to have more authority than the spoileron (it's part of the factors of what was killing people in the MU-2) And since in a Left roll the RIGHT stabilator would be increasing "lift" it would end up producing more induced drag on the RIGHT side.

 

I think? Stabilators kind of hurt my brain.

[sublime]

I switch the left 2 sas whwn ever not on AP IME the plane just flies better.

If im cruising theyre on. If i plan ANY sort of maneuvering besides landing theyre off

[Banzaiib]

At high alpha the Stabilator is going to have more authority than the spoileron (it's part of the factors of what was killing people in the MU-2) And since in a Left roll the RIGHT stabilator would be increasing "lift" it would end up producing more induced drag on the RIGHT side.

 

I think? Stabilators kind of hurt my brain.

 

 

yeah, thanks, now my brain hurts too... but i'm pretty sure you input reverse yaw input, because the spoiler will induce yaw toward the direction of the roll... which doesn't just reduce lift over the inside wing, but also the inside stabilator (the fuselage would induce big turbulence over the inner stabilator because of the yaw angle of attack)... but, you know, not a pilot, so i could be wrong...

 

... oh damn, i think i'm all messed up on this... :)

Edited June 15, 2020 by Banzaiib

[USAFMTL]

I have switched it off and I seem to be having better luck controlling it in a dogfight. I am still learning though. She is a handful...

[stuart666]

When you say cross control, do you mean putting in opposite rudder aileron input to get a snap roll? I love doing that, I just wished DCS wouldnt make you black out for a second every time you do it.

 

 

I turn it off. I noticed that it was proving very dangerous to leave it on when at low level when dogfighting. By the time you remember to recenter your controls to avoid crashing into the ground, you already have. Its hardly worth leaving it on to make turning on your autopilot a bit quicker.

[Hummingbird]

We turned it off. Okie was an aberration, and was taking a risk that required different control inputs. He was also senior, and didn’t exactly advertise what he was doing.

 

Same with the discussion on using full flaps. The torque tubes would consistently break, and it was quite easy to see if your opponent was using full flaps. The only place that would typically made sense was a flat scissors in a 1v1. Was it worth the risk to come back to the ship with split or a flap lockout in the North Atlantic with no diverts and a pitching deck? Do that a couple of times and you’re going to be questioned and even grounded for a while.

 

Breaking jets didn’t not enhance mission readiness and was a big deal for obvious reasons. One of the pilots most of you worship constantly over stressed during demos, was counseled and was and still is hated by the maintenance troops, operations officers and his peers for his selfishness. Taking a jet out of service for a week because of ego isn’t respected at all.

 

I cross controlled to get a better roll rate at high alpha. Some guys didn’t. I had long experience and understood the nuance and was smooth and judicious with the controls. I thoroughly understood from the aircraft response when to neutralize the lateral stick. The Tomcat was wonderful with buffet feedback cues. It did not jeopardize the flap/slat system nor was it dangerous with Roll SAS off.

 

One of my squadron mates got an F14A into a flat spin and had to eject in the early 1990’s. The RIO’s seat didn’t leave the aircraft, and for whatever reason, he didn’t try a manual bailout. He rode the aircraft to his death, on the radio the whole way down. The pilot was our NATOPS officer, was very conservative and conscientious, but to this day, my pilot bud is haunted because he feels like he left the Roll SAS on and departed as a result. I see him a few times per year, we work for the same company. He is not the happy go lucky man that he once was.

 

Do what you want in DCS, there is no price. I turn it off. It doesn’t make a difference in typical engagements.

 

I don't feel the stall is as easy to read in DCS though, the shaking is too extreme and not progessive enough for me to feel it increase properly, and as a result I have to keep an eye on the AoA indicator. Is this correct as is?

 

I raised the issue not so long ago here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=274478

[Mule]

Unbelievably cool to get feedback from an experienced Tomcat pilot. Just incredible. Many thanks.

[Banzaiib]

I don't feel the stall is as easy to read in DCS though, the shaking is too extreme and not progessive enough for me to feel it increase properly, and as a result I have to keep an eye on the AoA indicator. Is this correct as is?

 

I raised the issue not so long ago here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=274478

 

 

love ya Hummingbird, but i have to disagree with ya... i feel like the stall is very easy to read, compared to the other birds in DCS. i fly with centered stick and a 5 inch extension, though, so maybe that helps?

[Airhunter]

I don't feel the stall is as easy to read in DCS though, the shaking is too extreme and not progessive enough for me to feel it increase properly, and as a result I have to keep an eye on the AoA indicator. Is this correct as is?

 

I raised the issue not so long ago here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=274478

 

Go practice some slow-flight and high AOA flight, crank up your volume and see how the aircraft behaves at various AOA's. It's VERY easily readable and noticeable - also, why would you ever even come close to a stall situation operationally? Don't suck, don't stall your Tomcat.

[Victory205]

Victory, by cross control do you mean you rolled with the rudder? When I pull high alphas with the roll sas off, the wings start to rock, kind of like a dutch roll? Why is that an how do you counter it?

 

At high alpha, moderate to heavy buffet, roll with rudder with lateral stick neutral. The technique that I described is adding a little lateral stick opposite to the direction of rudder and roll to accelerate the roll rate. The F14, like most conventional swept winged jets (A4, F4, A7, etc), exhibits adverse yaw and sideslip at high alpha, which causes roll opposite lateral stick. Therefore, students learned very early in the TA-4J to roll at moderate to high alpha with rudder.

 

The F14 would roll opposite lateral stick at very small stick displacements. So much so, that I'd put my elbows on the canopy rails and use both hands to keep the stick centered, rolling using rudders only. That's what you should do in DCS. It is difficult due to the limitations of a desktop sim to enhance roll with opposite stick. It isn't a Heatblur issue, it is the inherent lack of physical feedback and wanting controller fidelity.

 

I used to get a kick out of my Gen Av buds who claimed that jets were flown with the pilot's feet on the floor.

[eatthis]

At high alpha, moderate to heavy buffet, roll with rudder with lateral stick neutral. The technique that I described is adding a little lateral stick opposite to the direction of rudder and roll to accelerate the roll rate. The F14, like most conventional swept winged jets (A4, F4, A7, etc), exhibits adverse yaw and sideslip at high alpha, which causes roll opposite lateral stick. Therefore, students learned very early in the TA-4J to roll at moderate to high alpha with rudder.

 

The F14 would roll opposite lateral stick at very small stick displacements. So much so, that I'd put my elbows on the canopy rails and use both hands to keep the stick centered, rolling using rudders only. That's what you should do in DCS. It is difficult due to the limitations of a desktop sim to enhance roll with opposite stick. It isn't a Heatblur issue, it is the inherent lack of physical feedback and wanting controller fidelity.

 

I used to get a kick out of my Gen Av buds who claimed that jets were flown with the pilot's feet on the floor.

 

im gonna try that, thanks for the tip. are we talking slightest opposite stick or 1/2 deflection?