Mi-24 NAV & Targeting system capabilities

[Bananabrai]

Hey together,

 

My question:

Is the Hind version we get capable to get coordinates of of the position it is looking at with its targeting system?

 

The question relates to / leads to: Can it be used to give coordinates to other aircraft attacking?

My knowledge about the Hind is close to zero and I want to change that a little bit.

 

Feel free to tell other things about the titels systems so I get an idea of what it is able to do.

 

Thanks.

[ZHeN]

no

[QuiGon]

Will our Hind even have an INS?

[Marsvinet]

It has a doppler based navigation system, similar to the one on the Mi8. But the Hinds version is more advanced, with its "moving map". Don't know any specifics, but I'd say that other than reading the map, you're not gonna be able to get any coordinates of anything.

[ZHeN]

I also like "targeting system"

 

Imagine a T-72 sight

[Mars Exulte]

Hind won't have much in the way of fancy shmancy avionics. It's a very barebones dedicated assault gunship. Think of it as a rotary wing counterpart to the Su-25A. They're frequently used enmasse to just blow the crap out of a given area. For example, 1980s Afghanistan, or modern Syria, where one of the more common "tactics" is a carousel where the helos form up in a long column and attack a given area sequentially one by one. By the time the last one goes, anybody shooting back or still moving is long dead.

[lmp]

How familiar are you with the Mi-8 and its DISS-15 doppler navigation system? In case you're not, it allows you to enter a desired course and once you start it, it will display the distance travelled along that course and your deviation from the course on numerical displays, using data obtained from its microwave radar under the tail boom, the gyro-compass and gyro-horizon.

 

The Mi-24 uses the DISS-15D system which also includes the big glazed box, where you can put a paper map and it'll move a tape with a cross indicator over it:

 

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Belarus-Air-Force/Mil-Mi-24P/3872391/L

 

It makes things a little less mentally intensive. And that's it. The Mi-24 doesn't have anything more advanced than that and the usual ADF.

 

So to answer your question - not really. You can read the coordinates off your paper map and tell where you are roughly. If you have a good estimation of where your target is in relation to you (distance, heading) you can do the mental math and give your buddies an idea where to look for it. But you can't provide good enough coordinates to, say, drop a JDAM on the tank you're aiming at.

[S.E.Bulba]

Google Translate

 

… The Mi-24 uses the DISS-15D system…

The DISS-15G modification (Russian: ДИСС-15Г), which additionally includes the 10 unit & SK-KI device (Russian: блок 10 & прибор СК-КИ, respectively).

 

Original in Russian

 

Модификация ДИСС-15Г, которая дополнительно включает в себя блок 10 и прибор СК-КИ.

 

[randomTOTEN]

How does the DISS resolve the difference in direction between the paper map and the aircraft compass system?

Presumably the map will be inserted with True North being vertical, but the GMK is aligned to Magnetic North. How do you tell the system the current variation+deviation so that it moves the map crosshair in the correct direction?

[MAD-MM]

How does the DISS resolve the difference in direction between the paper map and the aircraft compass system?

Presumably the map will be inserted with True North being vertical, but the GMK is aligned to Magnetic North. How do you tell the system the current variation+deviation so that it moves the map crosshair in the correct direction?

 

 

The System is not releated to magnetic Heading, Map with true North DISS-15 is measuring the Speed and Drift by the Doppler Radar System trough Frequenzy changes.

Antennas are for example the Box under the Tail Boom in the MI-8.

Same System only the visual output is different.

[sLYFa]

The DISS still needs a heading reference which it most likely gets from the GMK. Maybe there is a magvar setting somewhere to enter?

[lmp]

The DISS-15G modification (Russian: ДИСС-15Г), which additionally includes the 10 unit & SK-KI device (Russian: блок 10 & прибор СК-КИ, respectively).

 

Original in Russian

 

Модификация ДИСС-15Г, которая дополнительно включает в себя блок 10 и прибор СК-КИ.

Interesting. In a lot of Polish sources the model used in the D and V Hinds is called the DISS-15D. Is this a mistake in translation or are there two versions?

 

Re: True Vs Magnetic north. I can see three possibilities. Either the magvar is entered using "угол карты" input on the coordinate panel, or through a separate input, or they just orient their paper maps towards magnetic north.

[MAD-MM]

The DISS still needs a heading reference which it most likely gets from the GMK. Maybe there is a magvar setting somewhere to enter?

 

 

Yes you are right...MI-8 doesnt have this so think MI-24 also dont have the Option for magvar setting..same System

 

Would assume thats good old Hand Operation befor the Fligt, DISS have proberly mutch more drift then INS, thats why the Gunner would proberbaly still doing doing dead Reckoning in the FLight.

 

Would assume when you doing it right without F-10 Map you probably first have to calculate magnetic variation from your true Heading to get a proper Curse in your DISS.

 

 

PS: on the Right Knee Panel is the Control Panel for the DISS-15 same as in the MI-8 only grapic output with the MAP.

Edited October 5, 2020 by MAD-MM

[S.E.Bulba]

Google Translate

 

Interesting. In a lot of Polish sources the model used in the D and V Hinds is called the DISS-15D. Is this a mistake in translation or are there two versions?..

I don't know if there is a translation error in Polish sources, or not… but the DISS-15D modification is not available on the website of the manufacturer of this system (the link to which I have provided to you). The modification of the system for the Mi-24 has the DISS-15G designation (for the Mi-24U/DU it is the DISS-15E), if we transliterate from Cyrillic to Latin.

 

Original in Russian

 

Я не знаю, есть ли ошибка перевода в польских источниках, или нет… но модификация ДИСС-15Д отсутствует на сайте производителя данной системы (ссылку на который я Вам предоставил). Модификация системы для Ми-24 имеет обозначение ДИСС-15Г (для Ми-24У/ДУ – ДИСС-15Е), если транслитерировать с кириллицы на латиницу.

 

[randomTOTEN]

Either the magvar is entered using "угол карты" input on the coordinate panel,

I believe that is the same control in the MI-8, it defines the course direction, not the North direction.

 

or through a separate input,

yeah but don't see it yet.

or they just orient their paper maps towards magnetic north.

This is the zero cost solution, and probably accurate. But the map pieces are square, and I see no mechanism to rotate the map, which leaves me to believe they must be cut in the correct orientation during planning. And any slight error will result in the error of the crosshair.

 

 

Would assume when you doing it right without F-10 Map you probably first have to calculate magnetic variation from your true Heading to get a proper Curse in your DISS.

Yes, but you would need to translate that into the map display as well. If you travel 000°M the moving map crosshair will move straight up the map oriented to True Noth but the aircraft is not traveling True North, and after a while the crosshair will indicate an incorrect position, even though the rest of the DISS is functioning and indicating correctly.

 

 

The other solution is to just orient the GMK to True North, and deal with True courses/headings only and use map pieces oriented to True North.

[S.E.Bulba]

… This is the zero cost solution, and probably accurate. But the map pieces are square, and I see no mechanism to rotate the map, which leaves me to believe they must be cut in the correct orientation during planning. And any slight error will result in the error of the crosshair…

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4456963

[AndrewCZ]

One thing is, all this hardware is from the time the Hind was brand new. Anywhere it's still in service, you'd have an aviation GPS mounted somewhere in the cockpit (top of the glareshield or next to the fan are good spots). Your usual Garmin box you'd have in a Cessna, with moving map and airport/navaid database.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

On the Mi-24P it's usually in the pilot's seat to the left, as seen on

[xxJohnxx]

One thing is, all this hardware is from the time the Hind was brand new. Anywhere it's still in service, you'd have an aviation GPS mounted somewhere in the cockpit (top of the glareshield or next to the fan are good spots). Your usual Garmin box you'd have in a Cessna, with moving map and airport/navaid database.

 

I kinda expect that to be possible in DCS as well. I mean we already have the Garmin NS430 in the sim.

[lmp]

I believe that is the same control in the MI-8, it defines the course direction, not the North direction.

My thinking was, if the map cursor always moved up and down along the set course and left and right along the course deviation, you could match the course setting with the magnetic North of your map cutout and solve the magvar problem this way. You could even do some clever stuff like cut out the map diagonally to fit a longer route on it physically... But that's pure speculation on my part. If you look at the back right cockpit of a Mi-26, you'll see that it has two coordinate indicators and one of them has the course controls covered, as if to prevent from accidentally changing the setting. This gave me the idea - perhaps the one with the cover drives the map indicator in the front?

 

This is the zero cost solution, and probably accurate. But the map pieces are square, and I see no mechanism to rotate the map, which leaves me to believe they must be cut in the correct orientation during planning. And any slight error will result in the error of the crosshair.

 

You can make that slight error whether you're cutting it along the magnetic or true coordinates to be honest.

 

I wish I had the mechanical skills to recreate this instrument and use it in my "home cockpit". It would be beyond awesome if I could use my own paper maps :).

Edited October 7, 2020 by lmp

[Fri13]

Likely the map box just translates the HSI movement to correct magnetic difference as maps are true north.

The pilot moving map is not for targeting or for anything else than to guide pilot understand where they are and what positions does people around talk to.

 

The gunner job is to do own navigation as backup and to as well coordinate with the ground troops, Artillery and all others with a more accurate map in his possession.

 

So gunner knows their position, gets the heading and ranging to target if required and can so on talk to others.

 

But it is irrelevant information really as gunner has a map, as well pilot has one, so they simply talk using visual and the map coordinates and all.

 

If gunner sees a enemy positions at river bank opposite side of a river etc. There is no need to give coordinates. You can find position on map and tell coordinates over radio to ground units etc.

 

The problem comes when you don't have a terrain elements to guide someone, like flying at flat desert or over thick forest landscapes etc. You can't say "the red building" or "hill top of that leftmost" as all looks similar. But then you can use moving map and other navigation, for target marking a laser, smokes, flares and even just firing a rocket to set things on fire or something.

 

It really requires a person to have a situational awareness and update position on map. And the Mi-24/8 Doppler navigation systems does it more than fine by giving ground distance and speed, traveled distance and deviation from the course, and one can just use ruler and pen to mark position on map.

 

And it is better than INS as one can easily update position by spotting ground elements where to be.

[randomTOTEN]

My thinking was, if the map cursor always moved up and down along the set course and left and right along the course deviation, you could match the course setting with the magnetic North of your map cutout and solve the magvar problem this way.

Genius. Basically using the same system for 2 different modes, long range w/ no moving map, and moving map mode but you sacrifice the longer range of the DISS (beyond map boundary).

Yeah I like that idea a lot!

[S.E.Bulba]

Google Translate

 

Interesting. In a lot of Polish sources the model used in the D and V Hinds is called the DISS-15D. Is this a mistake in translation or are there two versions?..

@lmp

 

You were right, the DISS-15D is specified in the Mi-24V tentative maintenance manual (1975). Frankly speaking, I do not know what is the difference between the DISS-15D and DISS-15G, and why the DISS-15D modification is not available on the manufacturer's website. It is possible that the DISS-15G is a later version of the DISS-15D… but this is just my guess.

 

Original in Russian

 

@lmp

 

Вы оказались правы, во временной инструкции по технической эксплуатации Ми-24В (1975 г.) указана ДИСС-15Д. Откровенно говоря, я не знаю в чём разница между ДИСС-15Д и ДИСС-15Г, и почему модификация ДИСС-15Д отсутствует на сайте её производителя. Возможно, что ДИСС-15Г – это более поздняя версия ДИСС-15Д… но это лишь моё предположение.

 

[Dragon1-1]

Since this is a Russian designation, DISS-15D would be a later system. Cyrylic goes A, B, V, G, D.

[S.E.Bulba]

Google Translate

 

Since this is a Russian designation, DISS-15D would be a later system. Cyrylic goes A, B, V, G, D.

Thank you for telling me the order of alternating letters in Cyrillic. :) Nevertheless, I believe that the designation of the DISS-15 modifications depends on the number of elements in the system, and not on the time of the beginning of their production. So far, we can only state the fact that at present the manufacturer of the system offers the DISS-15G modification, but not the DISS-15D, which is mentioned in the Mi-24V tentative maintenance manual (1975).

 

Original in Russian

 

Благодарю, что подсказали мне порядок чередования букв в кириллице. :) Тем не менее полагаю, что обозначение модификаций ДИСС-15 зависит от количества элементов в системе, а не от времени начала их производства. Пока лишь можно констатировать тот факт, что в настоящее время производитель системы предлагает модификацию ДИСС-15Г, а не ДИСС-15Д, которая упоминается во временной инструкции по технической эксплуатации Ми-24В (1975 г.).