Turning dogfight

[JTAnimal]

Forgive me for the question I’m new and have a lot more to learn but. I’m looking for the best thing to do when in a dogfight and loosing speed in the F18. Do I drop altitude or do I fly straight. Or a combo of both. It seems some of the lighter jets don’t suffer from the same problem as much as the F18. I know it’s a complicated question, and it depends on what the other plane is doing. Is there a simple answer to this problem, that will help me stay in the fight?

[NoJoy]

Not answering your question here but asking an important question in the first place - is your opponent AI or human? The AI uses a simplified flight model and thus he's not losing energy from high G turns and climbs et.

 

[razo+r]

Depends. If you see you can pull lead and shoot him, try it. If you see you can't make it, unload and gain energy again.

[JTAnimal]

“Not answering your question here but asking an important question in the first place - is your opponent AI or human? The AI uses a simplified flight model and thus he's not losing energy from high G turns and climbs et.“

 

only flying against AI for the moment, multiplayer looks cool buy I want to get a bit more experience before I try on line. So your saying the computer is cheating :cry:

 

I have been doing the missions, and it seemed I had limitations but the AI did not. Maybe I should go on line :smartass: thanks all

[gavagai]

So your saying the computer is cheating :cry:

 

Yes, it is cheating. ED will say that the AI uses the same flight model as the player, but that claim is demonstrably false.

 

All the AI does is loop. It loops and loops and loops. Flying against other humans is much more fun. They don't have perfect SA like the AI, and they fly less predictably and are subject to the same limitations as you.

[KittyVCAW-1]

I didn't get BFM at all, I was totally lost and clueless. I found a thread where they talked about this. I watched it and it all made sense the 1st time through. I was killing the AI bandit's every time shortly after that. It's kinda cheesy but it's cool and a fun watch with tons of good info. I think the parts about attack geometry and energy management are what helped me the most.

[Skysurfer]

Lift vector placement and power settings, of which there are only two for the start (idle, boards or full AB).

[oldcrusty]

Depends. If you see you can pull lead and shoot him, try it. If you see you can't make it, unload and gain energy again.

 

Perfect description for my recent gunfight with jeff.

One suggestion for anyone trying to learn energy management flying against AI... set the skill to 'veteran'. If you put say JF17 to 'ace', all he's gonna do is go pure vertical and loop around till he runs out of gas. I won many a fight that way:lol:. Sometimes, he would ease up and let me get a high angle snap shot or he would pass me at high aspect and if I had around 250 kts on my jet, I'd rudder snap it and try to build energy on the way down. Many times I was able to close distance in lag, then when he tried to pull into vertical again I was close enough and had enough energy to pull my nose in front of him and like Mr. "moustache can't seal the mask" said: "Spend it all".

 

In this clip I flew a more 'classical' 2 circle fight with jeff. If it's guns only, I'd prefer 2 circle since it's easier for me to regain visual after the merge. In one circle fight, the Jeff will shoot straight up and you're left w/o energy (well, most of the times).

I never use G-oride, it's counter productive in guns only fights. If I have to 'flip' the jet around quick (at 250, 270-ish) I'll try to use rudder in combo with stick to invoke 'pirouette-ish' turn... sometimes it works, lol. The opponent has to be on the way downhill so I can settle in lag and build up speed.

In VR my neck is getting a serious workout. Especially after the merge, I get all twisted and my head is on the side of my chair and using my left hand, holding on to arm rests. But... that's even more fun.

 

 

 

[gavagai]

Oh yeah, nothing suspicious about some of the third party modules... nothing to see here.:shifty:

[JTAnimal]

I didn't get BFM at all, I was totally lost and clueless. I found a thread where they talked about this. I watched it and it all made sense the 1st time through. I was killing the AI bandit's every time shortly after that. It's kinda cheesy but it's cool and a fun watch with tons of good info. I think the parts about attack geometry and energy management are what helped me the most.

 

I watched the video and it was a good lesson, the guy knows the stuff, and it was one of the reasons I wasn’t going to post the original question. My question has no true answer, and I knew that, it’s a fluid situation. What I should have asked is what is the best speed to try and keep an F18 at during turn? A guy sent me a PM and said 300 is a good number to try and stay at. Do you guys, that have flown for a while, agree with that? So yes energy management, what’s the magic number for optimum turns keeping energy to fight.

 

I keep spending all my energy trying to get inside an AI that has unlimited turn. I feel stupid, but having fun!

[NoJoy]

Well what you are looking for is the best turn rate which is about 350kts I think but this is no magic number. Wachting videos of guys who know their stuff is helpful but it won't bring you in the right spot automatically. It's experience. Practice and more practice will. In the furball I suck too but trying to keep situtional awareness is the most important thing. If you know where your oponent is you can make a better desicion if it's worth to bleeding your energy for getting a good shot or if you'd better turn away go defensive but gaining additional energy for then getting into a better position. Means if you can't get a clean shot - better stop trying and bleeding off all your speed but try to reset the situtation and keep the initiative for the next turn. With some experience and trust in your gun skills you will know when it's worth loosing the momentum for a clean shot or just breaking away.

 

One word to the AI - I think the AI is kind of a relict from the LockOn and Flaming Cliffs days. It wasn't meant AI is cheating but keep it efficent, simple and safe resources. Good AI needs a lot of processing. ED is aware and working hard on a massive improvement bringing it to the next level. And from another prespective, like many in this forum said, AI is good training - if you can take it on with an experienced AI pilot - you are ready for the multiplayer furball against humans.

[dorianR666]

Oh yeah, nothing suspicious about some of the third party modules... nothing to see here.:shifty:

you realize AIs cant use the high fidelity flight model, right? and mig-15 AI is most notorious for being OP, thats not third party dev (ED).

AIs use some parametric generic flight model into which you enter the constants. its always just a rough approximation and will significantly differ from the proper behaviour.

 

no third party creator can possibly fix this.

[gavagai]

you realize AIs cant use the high fidelity flight model, right? and mig-15 AI is most notorious for being OP, thats not third party dev (ED).

AIs use some parametric generic flight model into which you enter the constants. its always just a rough approximation and will significantly differ from the proper behaviour.

 

no third party creator can possibly fix this.

 

Be that as it may, the AI JF17's performance in BFM is observably better than any other 4th gen fighter. That is a direct consequence of its FM, however it is approximated. They need to sell jets.

[dorianR666]

 

Be that as it may, the AI JF17's performance in BFM is observably better than any other 4th gen fighter. That is a direct consequence of its FM, however it is approximated. They need to sell jets.

but that makes absolutely no sense.

the AI flightmodel is completely separate from the module flightmodel. they are not related at all. the modules flight behaviour is noticably inferior to all 4gens in the game (TWR, G limits, etc.).

how would this help them sell more jets? lol

[wilbur81]

Some really good comments from former F-15 pilot about the AMAZING turning/low-speed handling of the Hornet.

 

[Rmnsvn]

Some really good comments from former F-15 pilot about the AMAZING turning/low-speed handling of the Hornet.

 

 

Starts at 16:10

[wilbur81]

 

Starts at 16:10

 

Thanks! And it comes up again at 35:00

[wilbur81]

Here's another cool pilot (F-14) story about the nastiness of the Hornet in a turning fight (at 1:21:10):

 

 

[Thunder_]

The energy module is not linear looks like? would an SME clarify that? some planes like the M2000 don't run out of energy and the Viper is very upbeat but feels under power, does anyone else have another opinion?