How do you land the viper without running out of runway

[Donglr]

I just gave this a try with: 3 full bags and full internal fuel, 2x120C, 2xAIM9, 4xAGM-65, TGP, wind 0 knts

 

It took me 1.5nm (dunno what that is in ft) to come to a stop. And that was not optimized for shortest distance possible, actually quite gentle on the brakes because the F16 likes to be all over the place and I have to keep it somewhat in the center of the runway by modulating the wheel brakes.

[GGTharos]

~6000' to 1nm.

[ruddy122]

A nautical mile is 6076 ft

Old pilot useless knowledge

1.5 nm is equal to approximately 9038 ft so any strip less than 10000 ft and you land on brick one you will be ok

If you land in the first 3000 ft you will go off-roading in that configuration

IRL T-38 students are taught to land the T-38 in the first 500 ft and how to aerobrake


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[silverdevil]

4 hours ago, ruddy122 said:

If you land in the first 3000 ft you will go off-roading in that configuration

I resemble that remark.

[ruddy122]

I figured out what my problem is after flying DCS

It’s not the AOA approach or aero braking it is finding a key that doesn’t lock the brakes

I don’t have rudder pedals so I use W for wheel brakes which I skid and swerve is there another key that is not so extreme


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[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Not that I know about: a keyboard press will always be either on/off. What you need for wheel brakes is an axis.

[Sr.]

 

[ruddy122]

I set a Wheel Brake Axis on my throttle hope I don’t go off roading


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[Donglr]

3 hours ago, Sr. said:

 

 

"Notice the anti-skid hard at work"...I am confused, is it implemented or not? Looks like it in this video but several people say otherwise and and I can cause brake marks all day long with my baby.

 

[silverdevil]

in the days of cars without antilock brakes we would tap the brakes as to not skid. tap the W key. in my case i have brake key on HOTAS.

[Sr.]

2 hours ago, Donglr said:

 

"Notice the anti-skid hard at work"...I am confused, is it implemented or not? Looks like it in this video but several people say otherwise and and I can cause brake marks all day long with my baby.

 

I have no idea... I'm a brake tapper

[ruddy122]

Whatever you try you are gonna get skid marks

The F/A-18 does that and you can do everything right and you still can’t win

One way to not touch the brakes and stop is fly an AOA approach as best you can and on rollout extend the speed brakes and don’t touch the wheel brakes until the very end if required. The plane will stop by itself try Khasab if you have the Persian Gulf Map


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[danny875]

Dance with your toes, kinda like the braking in a race car except you have steering with your feet...

[Dee-Jay]

3 hours ago, Donglr said:

 

"Notice the anti-skid hard at work"...I am confused, is it implemented or not? Looks like it in this video but several people say otherwise and and I can cause brake marks all day long with my baby.

 

Anti skid is not implemented. Or at least, is do not work.

 

You've probably missed this thread:

 

 

[silverdevil]

aerodynamic braking for sure. i would not go after the brakes immediately in any plane. i was in a cessna 150 recently that the front wheel would wobble like a bad shopping cart if you tapped brakes too fast.

[ruddy122]

The visual skid marks tell the story

On the viper hitting W the wheels lock and you can see a long skid mark

On the Hornet you can see intermittent skid marks which to me is a Visual Indication that the Hornet’s Anti Skid is hard at work and the swerving is not as extreme


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[Shadak]

I use the brake analogue axis on my stick to modulate the brakes until the anti skid works. Works OK but I do agree I need to slow down more for landing in F16 than F18.

[danny875]

19 hours ago, Shadak said:

I use the brake analogue axis on my stick to modulate the brakes until the anti skid works. Works OK but I do agree I need to slow down more for landing in F16 than F18.

Just put the top of the E bracket where your FPM is and that is 11 degrees AOA, the speed doesn’t matter it’s the AOA you fly.

13 degrees for Aerobrake.

Edited December 13, 2020 by danny875

[ruddy122]

I like the Viper

Landing her consistently safe is a challenge

For Christmas I’m looking at Rudder Pedals


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Looking to land at Ramat David, Khasab, and any 8000 ft strip


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Looking to land at Ramat David, Khasab, or any 8000 ft strip safely


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[FoghornF16]

Retired USAF F16 IP here, now turned civilian-employee test pilot on the same airframe.

This could be a 30-page document, but I will try to keep it brief.

Caveats & Assumptions:
- I assume DCS properly simulates aircraft aerodynamics, which I cannot attest to;

- USAF F-16CM, C-Model. NATO birds are lighter, ergo, numbers are different;
- NATO standard 9000' runway, w/ 1000' overruns;

 

Procedures & Techniques:
Approach at 144 +4 knots per 1000# of stores and fuel.  This will give you an 11^o AOA approach, which is slightly fast to the T.O. 1F-16CM-1 which states 13^o AOA, but is operational standard to keep the lieutenants from dragging the speedbrakes on the pavement (not a joke).  You do this by flying the FPM at the top of the AOA Staple in the HUD.  Top of the staple is 11^o AOA, bottom is 15^o AOA.

As you come down final, aim the FPM in the middle of the approach-end overrun at 2.5^o-3^o glide slope.  Counter to traditional flying, this is a power-on approach... here you will use POWER to control AOA, and PITCH to control Aimpoint.  As you approach the overrun (might just start getting ground rush here, or start a little before ground rush), shift your FPM to the threshold, pause a heartbeat, and then shift the FPM to the horizon and pull power to idle just before you cross the threshold.

Arrest your sink rate with stick, pause a heartbeat, and then set the airplane gently onto the runway surface.  Yes, you have to manually fly the jet onto the ground (more on that in a moment).  You should touchdown in the first 500' of the runway, unless you were landing from a precision approach like an ILS, which will guide you to a 1000' touchdown.  Never accept a long touchdown.  Power up, take it around and do it again, Lieutenant.

 

Once down, ease the nose up to 15^o AOA / FPM at bottom of the staple (no more or you'll drag the speedbrakes) and hold it there (this is an aerobrake), until less than 100 KCAS.  The nose should naturally slowly fall until the nose gear touches down as well.  Full override on the speedbrakes and hold (if DCS sims that) with full aft stick, and gently test your wheelbrakes to ensure they are working (now... when you have enough time and runway left to throw the hook down and take a cable if they don't).  If wheelbrakes check good, then come off them and continue rollout with just full speedbrake & full aft stick until airspeed is less than 70 KCAS, then full wheelbrakes to a stop.

 

Comments:

The reason you have to fly the Viper onto the ground is because the F16 wing does not stall as you are landing; the DFLCS keeps rolling more and more LEF and flaperon as the airspeed bleeds off in the flare to keep the wing flying.  It is a common (and much mocked) sight at the Luke and Holloman, with the first landing attempts of new F16 B-Course students, to see the D-model floating down the runway for 3000' or more with the tires 2" above the pavement, because the student is waiting for the classic stall of the wing like in the T38... which never comes as runway ticks away.

I have landed 10 minutes after takeoff with full air-to-ground ordinance aboard, 2 full bags of gas and an ECM pod on the center, in the rain, on a NATO standard runway... 2000' more than needed.  You have PLENTY of runway available, I can attest to that (again, assuming DCS is simming accurately).

Fly-By-Wire Flight Control Systems are amazing.  But very, very different from what a 'traditional' pilot is used to.  Thank you for your time; I hope this helps.


P.S.  Finally, something I can discuss on here without violating clearances!  -- Foghorn

[ruddy122]

It helps I get it

The KC10 was more traditional

The C-17 is weird you have to add thrust to cushion the landing

The 10 is like the T-1A put it at idle and stall the plane


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[Donglr]

1 hour ago, FoghornF16 said:

[...]  Counter to traditional flying, this is a power-on approach... here you will use POWER to control AOA, and PITCH to control Aimpoint.   [...]

 

Nooo, my life is ruined! When I did my very first steps in flight simming 15 years ago I had to get used to the concept of using "stick for speed" and "throttle for sinkrate" and now you tell me I have to re-learn this all over again? Geetz, it's time for the Ah64 to FINALLY release so I can leave all this fixed wing nonsense and enjoy the scenery from down low.

 

Some really nice info in that post, tbh. Thanks.

[KalAbaddon]

I do not have any pics of a speed brake strike (could of sworn I did),  but I got some of a stabilator strike on landing!

[bbrz]

I'm curious where these misleading statements come from that you land a KC-10, T-1A (or any other jet) in a stalled condtion.

 

When using a normal approach speed and sink rate you can land the C-17 like every jet without the need to increase thrust.

 

Why would a F-16 student pilot wait for the wing to stall since he knows that the stall AoA is well above any touchdown AoA?

 

I've noticed this on other forums that the term 'stalled' is being used a lot, mainly (or even exclusively) by US pilots, when it's about landing/touchdown without referring to an actual aerodynamic stall.

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by bbrz

[Machalot]

49 minutes ago, bbrz said:

I've noticed this on other forums that the term 'stalled' is being used a lot, mainly (or even exclusively) by US pilots, when it's about landing/touchdown without referring to an actual aerodynamic stall.

Maybe it's referring to when the airspeed reduces and the wing produces insufficient lift to maintain level flight (or constant glide slope). Presumably this would feel like a stall.