Does blue have any reliable point defense SAM systems?

[MobiSev]

It seems that really the only reliable point defense SAM is the TOR on red, and the Roland does not seem to do that well.

[Cmptohocah]

8 hours ago, MobiSev said:

It seems that really the only reliable point defense SAM is the TOR on red, and the Roland does not seem to do that well.

Most of the (radar) SAMs in DCS are nothing more than sitting targets waiting to get shot out by the anti-radiation missiles or some low flying planes. What I mean by that is that they don't really use any tactics or "tricks" in order to survive. They are "on" all the time, they don't move and usually engage only at a pre-determined range. 

[falcon_120]

Yeah but I guess the question of the OP is rather about which is the unit on blue designated to provide the same capabilities as the TOR does on red? 

If that is the question, the answer is none. I can't think of a blue unit able to provide the same type of features the TOR provides.

 

On the second point though, there are some servers who use scripting to make IADs more intelligent, or they are directly managed by humans. Other than that a revisit of the IADS capabilities and AI has been in the wish list of ED for a long time (as better ATC, better clouds -coming soon!-, Dynamic campaign...) It is a long process but sometime along the road i'm sure they will do it.

[PoorOldSpike]

MobiSev asked-Does blue have any reliable point defense SAM systems?

----------------------------------------------------------------

It depends what you're shooting at, planes or missiles?

Meanwhile I did this thread a few weeks ago if anybody's interested-

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by PoorOldSpike

[Shadow KT]

Well... not really. 

US's ADs are pretty lack luster, in terms of land based ones. You got the patriot and CIWS (or however the ground based one is names), which unfortunately is not in the game.

[Northstar98]

Yeah only ground based BLUFOR point defence is probably going to be the Centurion C-RAM; basically a trailer mounted Phalanx Block 1B firing MPT-SD rounds (as opposed to the APDS rounds naval phalanx fires), though it's not present in DCS (and neither are the Mk149/Mk244 APDS rounds for the naval Phalanx).

 

Other than that, there is the Oerlikon GDF and NBS-C-RAM/MANTIS; both being the same 35mm gun as on the Flakpanzer Gepard, though NBS-C-RAM/MANTIS and later versions of the GDF (GDF-006/-007) get access to 35mm AHEAD ammunition - essentially programmable airbusting fragmentation rounds. Both systems are paired with the Skyguard FCS (earlier versions of the GDF using Super Fledermaus).  

[Dagger71]

Seems like no one actually answered the question.  In game the Roland  is the blue side "equivalent" to the red side TOR but is less effective. 

For some reason in DCS most  Red SAMs are far superior to the blue equivalent (for all short,  medium and long range SAMs).

Edited January 1, 2021 by Dagger71

[PoorOldSpike]

On 12/30/2020 at 2:02 AM, MobiSev said:

It seems that really the only reliable point defense SAM is the TOR on red, and the Roland does not seem to do that well.

 

What exactly do you mean by "point defence"?

There are CIWS gatling-type guns, AAA guns and short-range SAMS, and all will shoot at aircraft, and some will also shoot at missiles.

Does that answer your question?

Edited January 2, 2021 by PoorOldSpike

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, Dagger71 said:

Seems like no one actually answered the question.  In game the Roland  is the blue side "equivalent" to the red side TOR but is less effective.

 

In that case the OP answered their own question.

 

1 hour ago, Dagger71 said:

For some reason in DCS most  Red SAMs are far superior to the blue equivalent (for all short,  medium and long range SAMs).

 

Because that's basically reality - western forces really didn't spend much time developing point/local area air defence systems like REDFOR - the only systems that I can think of that have fully self-contained missile systems (including acquisition/search and FC RADARs) is the Roland, with the next best thing being the Crotale.

 

Of course we can discuss about tactics, EW and IADS etc.

 

In DCS we have the Roland II (at least from what I can gather) which is late 70s/early 80s, the Tor is not only a higher performing system all around (in terms of missile performance, the phased array fire control RADAR and FCS). Tor was designed from the outset to intercept a variety of PGMs threatening strategic SAM sites; Roland on the other hand was more for aircraft and not much else, it's much more synonymous with Rapier but maybe a slightly more beefed up version.

 

[GGTharos]

2 hours ago, Dagger71 said:

Seems like no one actually answered the question.  In game the Roland  is the blue side "equivalent" to the red side TOR but is less effective. 

 

You have pretty much answered your own question, although I'll say that overall SAMs are undermodeled, no one should be wanting to get into an area with a Patriot deployment if they don't have to.  Stinger should be adequate SHORAD but again, a bit under-modeled and poorly deployed in-game, IMHO.    There's a MERAD gap that HAWK should fill, things like ROLAND are SHORAD and it's not particularly comparable to the TOR, more like to the Tunguska IMHO.

 

2 hours ago, Dagger71 said:

For some reason in DCS most  Red SAMs are far superior to the blue equivalent (for all short,  medium and long range SAMs).

 

SAM capabilities are not well enough represented, but despite all this yes - 'Red' would have more variety overall.  'Blue' would bring the crushing rain of AMRAAMs, well, depending on which era you want to talk about.

 

There's also the matter of the missing ECM but I suppose you could pretend those jammers are there to account for the current SAM performance

[Shadow KT]

I don't agree with the statement that Red SAMs are far superior... they do have more variety, true...  

[PoorOldSpike]

The US Avenger is my favourite Blue short-range (2.4nm)  SAM because it fires 8 x Stinger SAMs in quick succession under AI control..:)

Here are pics of it, and a vid of it in action against SU-25T's.

Automatic reload time is almost 6 minutes with or without an ammo truck.

Sorry about the poor picture quality, I used my tablet camera, let me know if the vid don't work-

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by PoorOldSpike

[Northstar98]

On 1/3/2021 at 8:44 AM, Shadow KT said:

I don't agree with the statement that Red SAMs are far superior... they do have more variety, true...  

 

Maybe superior isn't the right word, but they are largely without BLUFOR counterparts - I can't think of any BLUFOR SAM system that's comparable to Tor for instance. 

 

It's really a difference in doctrine above all else, REDFOR, particularly the USSR and Russia, invested a lot of development work into their air defences, and BLUFOR pretty much didn't.

 

The reason why I think things like the Tor is superior, isn't because I'm a fanboy of the system, but because there really isn't a BLUFOR counterpart, the only thing I can think of at present is probably the in development British CAMM-L/Land Ceptor/Sky Sabre, only this requires a battery of separate launch vehicles, acquisition and engagement RADARs and CP, whereas TOR is fully integrated onto one vehicle. The main advantage CAMM has over Tor is the slightly longer range and ARH/DL guidance, over the Tor's ACLOS; though CAMM is 30 years newer.

[Volator]

20 hours ago, PoorOldSpike said:

The US Avenger is my favourite Blue short-range (2.4nm)  SAM because it fires 8 x Stinger SAMs in quick succession under AI control..:)

Here are pics of it, and a vid of it in action against SU-25T's.

This may be a SP/AI vs. MP/human player and latency issue, but in MP the Avenger/Stinger doesn't live up to this reputation. In MP Avenger/Stinger is unable to hit aircraft in at least 50% of the cases. Enemy a/c don't even have to fly evasives or flare or go particularily fast, and the Su-25T with its IR jammer and tons of flares is almost immune to Stinger if flown properly.

[PoorOldSpike]

On 1/4/2021 at 2:14 PM, Pilot Ike said:

This may be a SP/AI vs. MP/human player and latency issue, but in MP the Avenger/Stinger doesn't live up to this reputation. In MP Avenger/Stinger is unable to hit aircraft in at least 50% of the cases. Enemy a/c don't even have to fly evasives or flare or go particularily fast, and the Su-25T with its IR jammer and tons of flares is almost immune to Stinger if flown properly.

 

 

My tests are single-player AI Avenger vs AI SU-25T's, and yes the Avengers kill rate is usually a bit less than 50%, that is to say when it fires its 8 Stingers, only about 3 or 4 will hit, and the rest will be decoyed away by flares.

But that's still a pretty good kill ratio, and if you've also got another couple of Avengers on the field, the three of them will fire a total of 24 Stingers  and kill a total of between 9 to 12 aircraft, not bad at all..:) 

Here's another test vid, the Avenger (average skill) fires its 8 Stingers at incoming AI SU-25T's (veteran skill) and scores 3 kills-

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by PoorOldSpike

[Boogieman]

NASAMS might come close to filling the gap if it was in game. It's not a system you'd be likely to see in any of the theatres/factions/timeframes depicted in DCS though. 

[Silver_Dragon]

As Blueforce pinpoint systems:
France:
-Crotale/NG/Mk.3

-Mistral

-VLMica/M/NG

-SAMP/T 

 

Germany

IRIS-T SL/SLS
LFK NG (on develop)

MANTIS

 

Italy

CAMM-ER

SPADA

SkyGuard

SAMP/T

 

UK

Blowpipe

StarStreak

Stardust

CAMM

 

USA

Avenger

IM-Shorad

 

[PoorOldSpike]

Just happened to see this vid of a CIWS in action on land which is welcome news because I've been saying for a while they could be used on land as well as on ships.

But at the moment land-based CIWS systems don't seem to be in DCS..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sh4rk]

In DCS, Redfor has a slight advantage in radar guided SAMs. The exceptions are the Roland's Search Radar being good and the Hawk hitting at higher altitude than Buks / Kubs.

 

Blue has better IR and guns-type SAMs. Stingers are better than Igla, Avenger, Linebacker, Chaparral, Vulcan and even Bradleys are better than Strela and Shilka. Overall the western guns hit more effectively because they spread more at a higher rate of fire and caliber. And the missiles because they are either versions of Stingers or AIM-9s.

 

The ground launched ATGM stuff (TOWs) is also more deadly against helicopters; the only real Red threat to helos (besides radar-guided) are Tunguskas. Which are the only decent SHORAD in Red, though easily defeatable by disrupting line of sight.

[Volator]

1 hour ago, Sh4rk said:

Blue has better IR and guns-type SAMs. Stingers are better than Igla, Avenger, Linebacker, Chaparral, Vulcan and even Bradleys are better than Strela and Shilka.

 

1 hour ago, Sh4rk said:

the only real Red threat to helos (besides radar-guided) are Tunguskas.

 

I beg to differ with these quotes.

 

I don't see any evidence in any of my Tacview replays that Iglas and Strelas are worse than Stingers (employed by troops, Avenger, Linebacker). I always regarded them as better, maybe they are on par, but definitetly not worse. Same for Shilka vs Vulcan. The Shilka is a slower vehicle though, but tracking rate seems better than with Vulcan. But a Shilka spreads fire at least as effectively as a Vulcan.

Can't say much about Chaparral, I see them rarely on MP servers. I just know that on one particularily famous MP server they were taken out and substituted by Avengers as they were deemed too ineffective by the mission maker.

 

As for the second quote, BMPs and T-72/T-80/T-90 with their AT-5, AT-10 and AT-11 are extremely dangerous for blue helicopters. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Pilot Ike

[MobiSev]

On 1/6/2021 at 6:44 AM, Silver_Dragon said:

As Blueforce pinpoint systems:
France:
-Crotale/NG/Mk.3

-Mistral

-VLMica/M/NG

-SAMP/T 

 

Germany

IRIS-T SL/SLS
LFK NG (on develop)

MANTIS

 

Italy

CAMM-ER

SPADA

SkyGuard

SAMP/T

 

UK

Blowpipe

StarStreak

Stardust

CAMM

 

USA

Avenger

IM-Shorad

 

 

It would be cool if a lot of these were in the game.  And FYI, by point defense, not talking about planes, but missiles, glide bombs, etc.

[PoorOldSpike]

12 hours ago, MobiSev said:

..FYI, by point defense, not talking about planes, but missiles, glide bombs, etc.

 

There are lots of missile types so I just ran these tests against incoming Russian TV-guided KH-29T missiles, (they're the equivalent of the TV guided Maverick F)

 

Of all the Blue AAA and SAM's, only the Rapier and Roland fired at the KH-29T's, check this vid of Rapier/ Avenger/ Chapparal/ Roland- 

 

 

Here are screenshots of tests with the other Blue AAA and SAM's, no need for me to video them because NONE fired at KH-29T's-

 

Here's what the KH-29T looks like being launched from an SU-25T-

 

 

Below: Gepard/ Bofors/ Vulcan/ Linebacker/ 88 Flak, none fired at the KH-29T's-

 

 

Below: Stinger Manpad/ Hawk/ Patriot, none fired at KH-29T's

 

SUMMARY- Like I said, the only Blue Air Defence units that fired against KH-29T's were the Rapier and Roland.

Maybe the other AD units will fire against other types of missiles but there are so many it'd take me forever to test them all, so I plumped for just testing them against the KH-29T.

Edited January 8, 2021 by PoorOldSpike

[Shadow KT]

You might wanna check your Patriot site, as that is the best point defense blue has.

Cool that the Roland and Rapier stopped those Kh-29s, but I am certain the Kh-29 has a humongous RCS values set, so they can pick it up. Try any of the chinese wonder weapons, or even HARM, Harpoons, SLAMs, Mavericks.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Shadow KT

[PoorOldSpike]

12 hours ago, Shadow KT said:

You might wanna check your Patriot site, as that is the best point defense blue has.
Cool that the Roland and Rapier stopped those Kh-29s, but I am certain the Kh-29 has a humongous RCS values set, so they can pick it up. Try any of the chinese wonder weapons, or even HARM, Harpoons, SLAMs, Mavericks.

 

 

"Point defence" means close-range, but the Patriot is a long-range anti-aircraft SAM, that's why it can't engage small KH-29T missiles; I ran multiple tests and it never fired once.

However it DID fire at SU-25T aircraft at 10 mile range, look-

 

 

 

 

 

 

Below: for the record here are the current Blue Air Defence units in the game-

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by PoorOldSpike

[GGTharos]

25 minutes ago, PoorOldSpike said:

"Point defence" means close-range, but the Patriot is a long-range anti-aircraft SAM, that's why it can't engage small KH-29T missiles; I ran multiple tests and it never fired once.

However it DID fire at SU-25T aircraft at 10 mile range, look-

 

This is incorrect logic.   Patriot is perfectly capable of all of this, it's just in-game.  It has the sensors and capacity to deal with small weapons, as seen in IRL court depositions from certain real life combat scenarios.

It isn't the case that 'it can't do this because it's a long range anti-aircraft SAM'.