Ability to call FFE mission from field artillery or MLRS via link to FDC

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Ability to call FFE (fire for effect) mission from field artillery or MLRS via link to Fire Direction Center.

 

Voice fire mission call was not required. AH-64A and D front seaters would a digital message to FDC for FA fire mission. 'ICM in effect'. Adjust fire was skipped. Used to suppress battlefield enemy air defense.

[Mule]

Yep, that would be superb!

[Fangs Out]

HE or Cluster?

[1stBEAST]

both? ^^

[vigilante87]

On 2/1/2021 at 8:58 AM, 1stBEAST said:

both? ^^

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 2/1/2021 at 6:43 AM, Bravelink03 said:

HE or Cluster?

In Field Artillery cluster munitions are referred to as ICM . Improved Conventional Munitions. So yes it would be ICM IN EFFECT.

 

X-Ray 1 this is Tango 2. Fire mission

Grid : 6 or 8 digit MGRS. ( 10 digit for precision guided Excalibur rounds and now retired Copperhead laser guided projectiles. )

Armor & troops in open advancing along 'azimuth'.

ICM in effect. Eyes ON.

 

The above can be voice, but often nowadays as a digital burst message to FDC.

T2 this X1. Fire Mission copy. Stand by for 'SHOT'

.........

T2 "SHOT out"

T2 "SPLASH out" (2-3 second warning before rounds on target.)

 

X1 This is T2. Rounds on target. 3 tanks burning. End Of Mission over.

T2 - X1 , EOM OUT.

 

The above is how it goes in 13F (forward observer) and 13A(FIST) jobs.

WE can also mix ICM (HE) and WP. In a 'Shake and Bake' fire mission, when engaging soft armor" . ICM and HE to poke holes in fuel tanks, break formation. Then put WP munitions on target to set everything on fire and smother the enemy in WP smoke.

So after HE/ICM munitions arrive. We send another mission

 

X1 this T2. 

WP in effect. REPEAT over.

T2 tis X1 WP in effect , REPEAT .

---after WP splashes and enemy is burning.----

X1 This is T2 . Good effect. EOM OUT.

 

 

 

 

[barundus]

On 2/3/2021 at 12:23 AM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

In Field Artillery cluster munitions are referred to as ICM . Improved Conventional Munitions. So yes it would be ICM IN EFFECT.

 

X-Ray 1 this is Tango 2. Fire mission

Grid : 6 or 8 digit MGRS. ( 10 digit for precision guided Excalibur rounds and now retired Copperhead laser guided projectiles. )

Armor & troops in open advancing along 'azimuth'.

ICM in effect. Eyes ON.

 

The above can be voice, but often nowadays as a digital burst message to FDC.

T2 this X1. Fire Mission copy. Stand by for 'SHOT'

.........

T2 "SHOT out"

T2 "SPLASH out" (2-3 second warning before rounds on target.)

 

X1 This is T2. Rounds on target. 3 tanks burning. End Of Mission over.

T2 - X1 , EOM OUT.

 

The above is how it goes in 13F (forward observer) and 13A(FIST) jobs.

WE can also mix ICM (HE) and WP. In a 'Shake and Bake' fire mission, when engaging soft armor" . ICM and HE to poke holes in fuel tanks, break formation. Then put WP munitions on target to set everything on fire and smother the enemy in WP smoke.

So after HE/ICM munitions arrive. We send another mission

 

X1 this T2. 

WP in effect. REPEAT over.

T2 tis X1 WP in effect , REPEAT .

---after WP splashes and enemy is burning.----

X1 This is T2 . Good effect. EOM OUT.

 

 

 

 

Couple items:
1) The Apache doesn't provide a 10-digit grid.
1a) High-precision grid really doesn't matter for a Copperhead, as it's laser-guided.  And, like you stated; retired/out of inventory
2) While (one of) the Apache digital systems had limited capability to do so (with A LOT of fiddle-fucking); No one ever called for a digital call-for-fire in combat.  Never happened. 
 

Edited February 18, 2021 by barundus

[FlankerKiller]

Honestly this is a much needed feature for DCS. Both the Kiowa and the Apache would have used the hell out of it. Also I wonder if the A-10 should be able to do it as well. But it would give the artillery way more lethality if fire missions could be called in as needed. 

[Dragon1-1]

In theory, any ship that has the FDC's frequency should be able to do it, given the proper authorization, of course. Of course, if you don't have a TGP you'd have to find the 8-digit grid position using your kneeboard map, but in theory, nothing would prevent you from making a voice call. 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 3/21/2021 at 4:34 AM, FlankerKiller said:

Honestly this is a much needed feature for DCS. Both the Kiowa and the Apache would have used the hell out of it. Also I wonder if the A-10 should be able to do it as well. But it would give the artillery way more lethality if fire missions could be called in as needed. 

A-10 is the artillery. Attack aircraft, including armed helicopters, are airborne artillery. JTAC and FIST call fire missions, FDC distributes actual firing orders, gun laying, munitions, and charge instructions.  Sometimes airborne elements need SEAD support. Cannon and MLRS field artillery is really good in suppressing battlefield air defense.  Our ground units are so dependent on air support that SEAD is everybody's business. An SF team  in front FLOT, skulking in enemy territory, is a SEAD element. If they come across a SAM element. They should engage it, if their mission allows it.

[FlankerKiller]

On 3/23/2021 at 4:51 AM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

A-10 is the artillery. Attack aircraft, including armed helicopters, are airborne artillery. JTAC and FIST call fire missions, FDC distributes actual firing orders, gun laying, munitions, and charge instructions.  Sometimes airborne elements need SEAD support. Cannon and MLRS field artillery is really good in suppressing battlefield air defense.  Our ground units are so dependent on air support that SEAD is everybody's business. An SF team  in front FLOT, skulking in enemy territory, is a SEAD element. If they come across a SAM element. They should engage it, if their mission allows it.

Right, that's way the Kiowa literally has the hardware to sample atmospheric conditions and relay it back to the artillery elements via datalink. That's why we have datalink networks that exist solely to locate and disseminate the location of enemy forces to all elements of the combined arms force. I'm certain that we've set up our military in such a way that if a pair of AH-64s spot a large number of infantry that absolutely cannot get on the radios and call in a fire mission. I mean maybe there loded out to kill armor, and not optimized for dismounted troops. But hey they can give it there best, even if there in range of a battery of field gun. Every single unit on the modern battlefield has a radio, and most have a data link for a reason. And just because we used these things one way in a coin fight in the middle east doesn't mean we would have used then in the same way in a peer to peer fight in Europe or Asia. 

[fargo007]

Speaking as a scripting yoda, if there's a method made available in the scripting engine to see the messages sent by the ah-64, this could be sent (via scripting) to the nearest artillery battery. 

 

The way artillery works in DCS, it's nearly impossible to interact with them in the same way that a FO would (e.g. bracketing, adjustment, etc)

 

And they seem to consistently be able to hit all around the targets, while damaging or destroying as few as possible. Cruise missiles from ships are much better if something really needs to be hit as a mission success condition.

 

So depending on how it's implemented, the FDC method might wind up being the best way to interact with arty that we've seen so far in DCS.

Edited March 24, 2021 by fargo007

[MRTX]

I know this is a very late reply to this discussion.

 

To recap my thoughts about calling in firemissions via datalink, I'm certain that the datalink method is the way more immersive and realistic approach to do it within the limitations that DCS offers. 

Without being able to call in firemissions via datalink we would be stuck to combined arms and the F10 map, which when it comes to immersion and realism is a pure dealbreaker.

Datalink would also give mission makers the ability to assign specific artillery batteries to specific apaches and maybe later on Kiowa's and therefore prohibiting the player to use every artillery asset available to them, this would later on also greatly bennefit the multiplayer user experience .

 

ED pls. don't be stupid and cheap out on the Apache and its features!

Edited April 1, 2021 by MRTX

[FalcoGer]

+1

The comms equipment on the apache is really complex and in depth. I would like to see it modeled in it's completion, and that includes this.

From what I have seen the apache can set artillery laser codes. So laser guided munitions would be neat, too.

[Remco]

22 minutes ago, FalcoGer said:

+1

The comms equipment on the apache is really complex and in depth. I would like to see it modeled in it's completion, and that includes this.

From what I have seen the apache can set artillery laser codes. So laser guided munitions would be neat, too.

The Apache can lase any laser guided weapon. However, laser guided artillery would require a change on Combined Arms, not DCS: AH64D, so you might want to make this request in the appropriate forum.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 2/1/2021 at 6:43 AM, Bravelink03 said:

HE or Cluster?

In Army and Marine Corps Field artillery, we refer to cluster munitions for 155mm as ICM. Improved conventional Munitions. Fire for effect, when I went through Ft.Sill FA Officer School , munition was ICM. Cluster munitions were reserved for aviation delivered ordinance.

On 10/14/2021 at 8:02 PM, Remco said:

The Apache can lase any laser guided weapon. However, laser guided artillery would require a change on Combined Arms, not DCS: AH64D, so you might want to make this request in the appropriate forum.

I do not think that US Army and USMC artillery still uses Cooperhead. Generic and specific des. for FA fire laser guided munitions. Nowadays its mostly GPS guided as most accurate FA munition.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 4/1/2021 at 5:57 AM, MRTX said:

I know this is a very late reply to this discussion.

 

To recap my thoughts about calling in firemissions via datalink, I'm certain that the datalink method is the way more immersive and realistic approach to do it within the limitations that DCS offers. 

Without being able to call in firemissions via datalink we would be stuck to combined arms and the F10 map, which when it comes to immersion and realism is a pure dealbreaker.

Datalink would also give mission makers the ability to assign specific artillery batteries to specific apaches and maybe later on Kiowa's and therefore prohibiting the player to use every artillery asset available to them, this would later on also greatly bennefit the multiplayer user experience .

 

ED pls. don't be stupid and cheap out on the Apache and its features!

 

In RL, when I was on active duty, there is no specific assignment of specific firing asset to specific battlefield element. Perhaps for special missions. But all calls for artillery fires, regardless of caller, go to Fire Direction Center , as briefed. FDC then issues fire mission tasking to each gun with elevation ,azimuth, charge, fuse, munition type,  and Fire ON Command or Fire For Effect orders.

[Remco]

1 hour ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

In RL, when I was on active duty, there is no specific assignment of specific firing asset to specific battlefield element. Perhaps for special missions. But all calls for artillery fires, regardless of caller, go to Fire Direction Center , as briefed. FDC then issues fire mission tasking to each gun with elevation ,azimuth, charge, fuse, munition type,  and Fire ON Command or Fire For Effect orders.

I believe he's referring to using the TACFIRE net, which is Apache is equipped with, to call for fire. It was not used much in real life for sure, but it'd be a great solution for DCS when it comes to interacting with AI artillery in an immersive way.

[kgillers3]

5 hours ago, Remco said:

I believe he's referring to using the TACFIRE net, which is Apache is equipped with, to call for fire. It was not used much in real life for sure, but it'd be a great solution for DCS when it comes to interacting with AI artillery in an immersive way.

Phhh not used much…. What do you know. 
 

im playin. Here’s the deal.  Not talkin to @Remco here. This is two separate systems that the Apache was advertised to work seamlessly, unfortunately it turned out difficult for most peeps to successfully accomplish . It has been done! 

also he’s right @Remco. But it’d be on the voice / digital network,

fire mission from observer > fse/fdc > gun line

that’s super basic but principle is there. No black magic, that’s an ep  

back to everyone. we’re talking about nonsense procedures when in reality we are talking about hitting the / key and some function buttons versus something in the cockpit

how you work with ai now this seems like a better option imo

Edited October 29, 2021 by kgillers3

[Enduro14]

Well one Good thing about the Apache is, it will bring to light all the ground game shortcomings in dcs.  Then maybe the outrage mob will affect positive change for the better.  Ground game is pretty lacking on many levels and calling in Artillery doesn’t scratch the surface.

 

core…..

[barundus]

On 10/29/2021 at 7:03 AM, kgillers3 said:

Phhh not used much…. What do you know. 
 

im playin. Here’s the deal.  Not talkin to @Remco here. This is two separate systems that the Apache was advertised to work seamlessly, unfortunately it turned out difficult for most peeps to successfully accomplish . It has been done! 

also he’s right @Remco. But it’d be on the voice / digital network,

fire mission from observer > fse/fdc > gun line

that’s super basic but principle is there. No black magic, that’s an ep  

back to everyone. we’re talking about nonsense procedures when in reality we are talking about hitting the / key and some function buttons versus something in the cockpit

how you work with ai now this seems like a better option imo

 

A little blast from the past:
 

 

 

[kgillers3]

11 minutes ago, barundus said:

A little blast from the past:
 

 

Dude… it opens up with them talking about the fire mission over a voice net.  But I’m willing to indulge. Can’t watch it all rn.  I had a long write up simply I never said it couldn’t work I said it was a pain in the ass to get to work.  And wasn’t that common due to that effect. 

[barundus]

10 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

39 minutes ago, barundus said:

A little blast from the past:
 

 

Dude… it opens up with them talking about the fire mission over a voice net.  But I’m willing to indulge. Can’t watch it all rn.  I had a long write up simply I never said it couldn’t work I said it was a pain in the ass to get to work.  And wasn’t that common due to that effect. 

Expand  

Ya, man.  I wasn't discounting your points.  In fact I was corroborating them.  You're absolutely correct it was cludgy and difficult.  
No need to get defensive.  

Read the description on the vid. 

If you've actually conducted a digital fire mission with live rounds, I'd love to know about your experiences.   
 

[kgillers3]

17 hours ago, barundus said:

Ya, man.  I wasn't discounting your points.  In fact I was corroborating them.  You're absolutely correct it was cludgy and difficult.  
No need to get defensive.  

Read the description on the vid. 

If you've actually conducted a digital fire mission with live rounds, I'd love to know about your experiences.   
 

Gotchya homie. I have on the fires side. Even getting pfeds, scus, and afatds to all talk to each other and continually with no issues was a pain in the butt, there is a guy on here that may or may not want to share his story but it’s his story to tell so I’m not gonna shout him out

Edited November 5, 2021 by kgillers3

[barundus]

2 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

Gotchya homie. I have on the fires side. Even getting pfeds, scus, and afatds to all talk to each other and continually with no issues was a pain in the butt, there is a guy on here that may or may not want to share his story but it’s his story to tell so I’m not gonna shout him out

 

It generally took a day and a half of the FIST truck parked in our hangar, with an aircraft plugged into wall power next to it, and the FISTers and a couple nerd pilots fiddle-fucking the TACFIRE to try and figure out how to get them to talk to each other.  

Six months later those guys would be gone, and we'd have to learn it all over again for the next gunnery.  Neither the canon-cockers, nor the aviators were very proficient.

I always took an interest in the digital side of things, and tried to make it work.  There aren't many of us left that have actually conducted TACFIRE digital missions, much less fired real Copperheads.  

Things have progressed radically in the last twenty years, but to my knowledge no-one has ever conducted a digital fire mission *in combat*.  We'll get there.

I would very much like to see it in DCS though.