Jester needs to be reworked.

[Capn kamikaze]

Constantly losing locks, and doesn't sort bandits in any sensible order in TWS, I don't care about the range to the furthest TWS track, I care about the range to the closest one.

In WVR combat, he is like 20 seconds behind where the fight is at, every time he says bandit at ______ the bandit is no where near, he say's 10 O'clock, and they're actually at 5 for example, it's worse than useless infomation, it's actually like he's sabotaging you.

[Trol]

Just for fun; Try air to air refueling in multiplayer.  It is on my checklist to shut up Jester.  What a clown.

[near_blind]

Jester doesn't sort the shoot order in TWS. That's entirely a function of the AWG-9 itself. Which one he bugs isn't of huge import as you can tell the range to target via the range lines on the TID. 

[The_Tau]

Maybe as temporary solution, HB should make Jester keep nearest contact selected in TID. Its not ideal solution but I think its enough for majority of PvP situations. IDK the code behind it, but it seems that Jester IFF targets in batches and marks them in TID in batches every 1 min or so. If there are 3 targets, he marks them friendly or hostile from nearest to furthest in quick succession and leaves TID selection on last marked target, that it, furthest. Maybe its possible to reverse logic to mark from furthest to nearest so that TID selection ends up on nearest. Not perfect, but on most servers we got AWACS support so IFF is less of concern as datalink does that for you.

[PhantomCat]

On 1/22/2021 at 3:24 AM, near_blind said:

Jester doesn't sort the shoot order in TWS. That's entirely a function of the AWG-9 itself. Which one he bugs isn't of huge import as you can tell the range to target via the range lines on the TID. 

Human RIO can sort/change up target order even if its set to TWS-A.

What really grinds my gears is when you at FL400 or higher and bandit is at sea level hot then Jester won't scan down to acquire the target. I have to do all the work to tell him to do that and loose precious time in the process. It's like he is completely incompetent with the radar.

Even worse when the radar starts tracking friendlies off to the side then he won't recenter the radar to track the bandits coming in hot at our 12.

[Fri13]

7 minutes ago, PhantomCat said:

Human RIO can sort/change up target order even if its set to TWS-A.

What really grinds my gears is when you at FL400 or higher and bandit is at sea level hot then Jester won't scan down to acquire the target. I have to do all the work to tell him to do that and loose precious time in the process. It's like he is completely incompetent with the radar.

Even worse when the radar starts tracking friendlies off to the side then he won't recenter the radar to track the bandits coming in hot at our 12.

 

One could think that AI should prioritize some given area based expectation as well additional information. 

If the target is informed to be on same altitude, then prioritize that altitude but search for others depending other factors is the target found or not, what is its range and is it a threat. So time allocated to gather overall picture is better than just focus to one thing.

If searching a targets at one altitude, but over radio it is informed that there is a return at higher/lower altitude, then include that to scanning too.

Give a more logic from the additional sources to Jester try to perform duties as best as they can. 

Same thing as with the IFF thing, if it is a friendly, there is no need to focus there but try to find something more important.  

 

Like if a AWACS informs that there are two contacts and Jester can find just one, it should do what is required to try to find the second autonomously. If he finds two, then there is no need to go to risk losing those two by searching more that are completely unknown if those two are high risk targets or critical to mission. 

 

In a SP game I would expect Jester to perform search independenly to try to get the unknown situation resolved and prioritize then high risk targets that are found. Not me to tell "Scan High" or "Scan Low" but let the Jester do that all automatically, let him report me "I scan low...." and return little while back "Picture clear, I scan high" etc. Then if I would for some magical reason know that target is below us and should be between X and Y positions, I can then just tell Jester "Scan Low" so it wouldn't challenge my god like knowledge of enemy position. But me babying the Jester what to do to find something.... No... 

[AH_Solid_Snake]

One thing that complicates this is trying not to make Jester the ultimate crutch for PVP, if he was just a full on AI player moving the radar around because of unrealistic awareness of what he’s looking for coupled to superhuman reaction times that would be a problem of equal measure.

 

Having said that I agree he could use some tweaking, it’s on my checklist to mute Jester before takeoff as I find him calling out every missile within range as a break is very distracting - I’d rather use the RWR and look out the window like everyone else.

[Fri13]

2 hours ago, AH_Solid_Snake said:

One thing that complicates this is trying not to make Jester the ultimate crutch for PVP, if he was just a full on AI player moving the radar around because of unrealistic awareness of what he’s looking for coupled to superhuman reaction times that would be a problem of equal measure.

 

I don't think anyone is talking about making Jester as a AI capable that knows everything, but actually add the logic to do something - after the limitations are built in first. Like how Jester has limited speed to input buttons, once you have such "disability" then you can build on that by just placing Jester to push buttons and that "disability" is used for that AI so Jester can't input them instantly. 

 

Same thing is with the radar scanning and target searching. Give a time limitations to search, give a reactions to first detected targets and make it delay other targets afterthat as still reacting the first detected etc. 

 

The problem still would be that giving the AI these disabilities, they easily become too handicapped that human player gets frustrated that AI can't see a target front of them. 

 

2 hours ago, AH_Solid_Snake said:

Having said that I agree he could use some tweaking, it’s on my checklist to mute Jester before takeoff as I find him calling out every missile within range as a break is very distracting - I’d rather use the RWR and look out the window like everyone else.

 

Would be nice to get better logic for that. Like I don't even know does the Jester have a logic that what is a threat, and what can be expected to be an missile with threat to them? Like if a aircraft next to you launches missile 180 away from you, why to call anything? If a threat is flying directly at you and launches missile, isn't that like a priority threat to react? 

[draconus]

10 hours ago, PhantomCat said:

Even worse when the radar starts tracking friendlies off to the side then he won't recenter the radar to track the bandits coming in hot at our 12.

As a pilot use short PLM push.

[Cobra847]

12 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

I don't think anyone is talking about making Jester as a AI capable that knows everything, but actually add the logic to do something - after the limitations are built in first. Like how Jester has limited speed to input buttons, once you have such "disability" then you can build on that by just placing Jester to push buttons and that "disability" is used for that AI so Jester can't input them instantly. 

 

Same thing is with the radar scanning and target searching. Give a time limitations to search, give a reactions to first detected targets and make it delay other targets afterthat as still reacting the first detected etc. 

 

The problem still would be that giving the AI these disabilities, they easily become too handicapped that human player gets frustrated that AI can't see a target front of them. 

 

 

Would be nice to get better logic for that. Like I don't even know does the Jester have a logic that what is a threat, and what can be expected to be an missile with threat to them? Like if a aircraft next to you launches missile 180 away from you, why to call anything? If a threat is flying directly at you and launches missile, isn't that like a priority threat to react? 

It's on our list to fix this particular issue and make missile calls more discerning and specific / limited.

[Blinde]

Does anyone else find Jester pretty useless to deploy flares these days? He barely ever notices IR missiles, even though they are coming from sectors where he should easily see them.

 

Very frustrating to do ACM in the past months since he can't lock the target, maintain the lock, see missiles or deploy flares. Only chaff work most of the time.

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Cobra847 said:

It's on our list to fix this particular issue and make missile calls more discerning and specific / limited.

 

As a side question about the AI in DCS, is there a possibility to make AI have a vision cone (like a radar beam cone) that is as well controlled with a logic to scan threats and track them? 

 

Like if player looks at the left, the jester would look at the right and perform the common trained search patterns trying to spot a object. In tracking phase the jester eyes would be gimbal limited to head, that is affected by G forces, and so on speed to turn head around etc?

 

Considering that ED is doing something like this to Mi-24 AI, but as well that this would be required be done by ED to all AI, ground and air. Example tank crew can't see outside their vision blocks if buttoned etc.

 

 

[Skysurfer]

44 minutes ago, Blinde said:

Does anyone else find Jester pretty useless to deploy flares these days? He barely ever notices IR missiles, even though they are coming from sectors where he should easily see them.

 

Very frustrating to do ACM in the past months since he can't lock the target, maintain the lock, see missiles or deploy flares. Only chaff work most of the time.

 

Flares are on the pilot, buddy, unless you set it otherwise. He does a decent enough job at chaff. Get a human RIO or look outside more in SP. 

[Cobra847]

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

 

As a side question about the AI in DCS, is there a possibility to make AI have a vision cone (like a radar beam cone) that is as well controlled with a logic to scan threats and track them? 

 

Like if player looks at the left, the jester would look at the right and perform the common trained search patterns trying to spot a object. In tracking phase the jester eyes would be gimbal limited to head, that is affected by G forces, and so on speed to turn head around etc?

 

Considering that ED is doing something like this to Mi-24 AI, but as well that this would be required be done by ED to all AI, ground and air. Example tank crew can't see outside their vision blocks if buttoned etc.

 

 

 

JESTER already does this. He scans the sky in a pattern and also looks at buttons/switches/instruments he is manipulating or observing. His head movements are an abstracted representation of this. 

His vision and spotting acuity within that visibility direction/cone is influenced by - and this is a non exhaustive list:

 

1.  Ambient lighting (sun, overcast, dusk, night, etc.)
2.  Light states 
3.  Afterburner states (e.g. AB at night from rear -> very visible)
4.  Angular/relative velocity: If coming from head on aspect, very visible, if high relative velocities (i.e. bogey is very "detached" from background or moves a lot) -> very visible)
5.  Size of aircraft
6.  Aspect of aircraft - top-down aspect is most visible
7.  Where in field of vision (if towards edges of visual cone, lesser likelihood of spotting)

There's probably more that I can't recall currently without looking at the code.  

[Blinde]

2 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Flares are on the pilot, buddy, unless you set it otherwise. He does a decent enough job at chaff. Get a human RIO or look outside more in SP. 

I've set it to both of course.

[IronMike]

On 2/22/2021 at 8:03 AM, Blinde said:

I've set it to both of course.

 

Due to the above mentioned, and when task saturated, it is less likely for Jester to spot a heat seaking missile, than alert you of a missile that gives a warning tone. If he does not look into its direction the moment it is fired, then he will miss it, just like a human would. For this reason you have the spot command. If you look into a certain direction, he will spot in that direction for iirc 30 seconds (could be 20, I'd have to look it up). For example, if you have a bandit on your six, he will already focus primarily on the bandit and thus likely spot the missile, but if you then ask him to do this or that, he will get distracted, and he will also cross-check the horizon, etc, so you might get unlucky in him just missing it. With spot, you will make sure that he stays focused on that direction for a while.

[Hextopia]

On 2/23/2021 at 9:09 AM, IronMike said:

 

Due to the above mentioned, and when task saturated, it is less likely for Jester to spot a heat seaking missile, than alert you of a missile that gives a warning tone. If he does not look into its direction the moment it is fired, then he will miss it, just like a human would. For this reason you have the spot command. If you look into a certain direction, he will spot in that direction for iirc 30 seconds (could be 20, I'd have to look it up). For example, if you have a bandit on your six, he will already focus primarily on the bandit and thus likely spot the missile, but if you then ask him to do this or that, he will get distracted, and he will also cross-check the horizon, etc, so you might get unlucky in him just missing it. With spot, you will make sure that he stays focused on that direction for a while.

So that's what that option does.  I don't think I ever saw it documented anywhere what the "spot" command was in the jester wheel.

[Baco]

I understand all the technical reasons and all but in the end I just gave up the Tomcat , since I don´t have a human rio and jester is useless...

 

Because of the paranoia of some PvP players we have a useless Jester. just make him Competent please.

At least Please let us occupy the rear seat in MP...

[DD_Fenrir]

33 minutes ago, Baco said:

I understand all the technical reasons and all but in the end I just gave up the Tomcat , since I don´t have a human rio and jester is useless...

 

Because of the paranoia of some PvP players we have a useless Jester. just make him Competent please.

At least Please let us occupy the rear seat in MP...

 

Funny, lots of other people seem to get on with Jester just fine, even PvP. But it couldn't possibly be your error...

 

Amazing how many blame Jester for the AWG-9 radar's limitations. F-14 crews regularly had to adjust their tactics to make the best of it, seems like too many here just expect it to be an all seeing all tracking wundermachine that turns a RIO into an omniscient battle god.

 

Could Jester jump to P-STT a bit more reliably? Sure, but that doesn't mean he never manages to hold a track on a bandit attempting to notch - many a time I've seen the TID repeater pop black as he's - unrequested - manged to discern the sudden change in closure and switch before the bandit manages to drop into the notch. But maybe that's because I regularly try to engage from a couple of Angels below the bandits altitude so that the radars looking up and doesn't get lost in the ground clutter.

 

If your STT locking from >20 miles, you're always going to have some unreliable STT locks.

 

Ask an F/A-18 guy with his Soild State radar that's 20 years younger than the AWG-9 if he ever drops tracks...

 

Can he get a bit stuck with running IFF routines? Occasionally if there's a complex battle picture, but I find a quick reset to Auto Radar Mode via the Jester wheel tends to give him a nudge and he quickly gets back to what he should be doing.

 

Is Jester perfect? Of course not. But considering the alternative, and the ground breaking attempt to provide a useful way of managing a complex Weapon System with some automated functions, I think he's a damn good and useful feature.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[Baco]

Ia m not even talking about complex PvP engagments: PvE, two mig 21 and a few friendlies arround, he can´t handle....

90% of the times you end up in PAL going solo...

 

I am not flaming HB, just saying the paranoia over "all seeing AI" killed the PvE or SP experience..

I do not expect an All seeing AI, nor an Uber war machine, I expect to be able to use AIM 7 and have at least a 50% PK..

 

I know its not easy to make an AI believable AND efficient. But cut him some slack and take away some of its handicaps... 

 

AI cant fight without cheating a bit, well neither can Jester.

[Ugly]

well said DD Fenrir, I fully agree with your statement. In the HB F14 you have to do RIO job as pilot when you are flying with jester. Accordlingly I have a lot direct jester commands on hotas. The only anyoing thing is the late calls on enemy position during dog fight, but this is already acknowledged by HB.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Ugly

[Hextopia]

15 hours ago, Baco said:

Ia m not even talking about complex PvP engagments: PvE, two mig 21 and a few friendlies arround, he can´t handle....

90% of the times you end up in PAL going solo...

 

I am not flaming HB, just saying the paranoia over "all seeing AI" killed the PvE or SP experience..

I do not expect an All seeing AI, nor an Uber war machine, I expect to be able to use AIM 7 and have at least a 50% PK..

 

I know its not easy to make an AI believable AND efficient. But cut him some slack and take away some of its handicaps... 

 

AI cant fight without cheating a bit, well neither can Jester.

I'm not sure I understand what part jester has to play in your AIM-7 shots.  He can't make the missile or the radar better, and you're usually firing those missiles from well within ranges where you should be taking the radar and locking it with PAL instead of letting a RIO, human or otherwise, attempt to do it.

[Dragon1-1]

He very definitely can make the radar better. Maintaining an STT lock is something of an art, and there are several switches he doesn't currently use. He could definitely be more competent with the radar.

[IronMike]

I just want to throw in here that paranoia or anything like that has absolutely nothing to do with how Jester is or isn't.

Jester is - by far - the most complicated thing we ever undertook. He is time consuming in development, he is difficult to solve, and there is only so much you can do, without a human head thinking ahead and/or along. The Tomcat simply is a two seater aircraft, so 2 humans will always enjoy it best. Jester is a means to give those, who prefer Singleplayer or fly solo online, a chance to fly it nonetheless. And Jester's limitations are in general the AWG-9s limitations in BVR, which many fail to understand, because they have a limited understanding of the AWG-9, or because their comparison for years has only been stuff like the TWS in FC3, which is extremely far from reality.

Radars are not like that. Even today TWS is not a reliable attack mode and has a hard time to deal with maneuvering. The AWG-9 is a very old piece of equipment, and while it is and was extremely powerful at the same time, it has to be treated with utmost care. This is of course where Jester runs into some limits of his own. One of the biggest ones: he does not do active radar work. It is something we keep juggling in our minds, but the task is immense, just look how long it takes us to finish Lantirn for him, another extremely complicated task.

But he is capable, and very capable if you learn how to use him and to help the AWG-9 as a pilot, with its limitations. Whenever we join a server to test his online ability, we end up with a bunch of kills, no losses and in fact are satisfied ourselves in how he works. For a long time I wanted to do a video on tipps and tricks for Jester, and how to make the most out of him, alas time is always an issue. But you have to fly, so that you help Jester. A simply example: radar elevation. I only bother with that at far ranges, close in - I point my nose. PSTT? I don't wait for Jester to make the switch (in a possibly unlucky moment), I command him to do so well ahead and when I know it will work safest, because the aspect is stable - and then I have you and the AWG-9 does not let go anymore, you can do whatever you like, I have you. Additionally, what I continue to read, is that folks try to use Jester at close ranges. 15nm and closer is not RIO radar fiddling time anymore. It is time to make use of the pilot acquisition modes. Ended up against 4 guys you want to TWS at 15nm? -> That is pilot error. You are a Tomcat, your job is to work them from a distance and fly accordingly, and when 3 of them are down, then you close in on the 4th guy, etc... The Tomcat demands a lot of tactical decisions in that sense, which later put you into a better position to achieve what you set out to achieve. So, not only does Jester require a thorough understanding of the AWG-9, but also a thorough understanding of BVR tactics, and how to adapt them best for the Tomcat. 

Some of his limitations will always remain - he is not meant to be a self teaching AI. He is a tool that provides basic RIO functions to the solo F-14 pilot. He never was meant to be more in the first place. That said, we will of course continue to evolve him and see what we can improve - but at the same time we stand behind him as he is, and from personal experience, he is very capable.

 

 

As for close in combat - the Tomcat becomes a pilot's plane once more, and you need to use foreseeing flying, positioning and bandit sorting, as well as WVR tactics like snaking and so on and so forth. This is where you shine as a pilot, and Jester rides along. Here's an example of WVR combat with aim7s against 3 bandits, it is the dact instant action mission in Nevada, if you want to try yourselves. If you observe closely, I try to time even the banking and rolling to help the AWG-9, to sort the bandits (for example I tilted the aircraft so that PAL would snap the right guy at the beginning first), I roll level to establish a firm RWR picture (for the last bandit), I go inverted for the second guy to align PLM with his flight path, and so on and so forth. You need increased SA for that (I trained years and year in these things, so dont expect your SA to be great over night), and tactical sorting of your bandits as well as knowledge of how to defend and reposition yourself at the same time for a new attack. These things take a long time to master, with dedicated instructors a year, or 2 to 3 years without. The basic understanding you can learn in a week. But to make it flesh and blood it takes persistance and most importantly: an attitude that tries to find the errors with yourself, no matter the equipment, opponent or bugs within DCS for that matter. When I screw up, 100% it was my mistake. And I won't rest until I defined it and can correct it. And sometimes you need help with that. Feel free to always jump on 104th Teamspeak for example and ask the guys. I do, too, if I run into an issue. An external pair of eyes can do wonders. Good luck!
 

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by IronMike

[Jayhawk1971]

I don't think Jester needs to be "reworked"; just some things need some more tuning and enhancement over time. Some seem to forget how Heatblur was really breaking new ground in DCS with the Jester AI (among other things, ofc). Imagine what you would do without Jester if you don't have access to a human RIO (which, I imagine, is the vast majority of F-14 users).

 

The only things about Jester that kinda bug me are his "lagging behind events" and "inability" to sometimes distinguish between missile type/ threat prioritization.

 

Examples for the first one would be him calling out bandits that are not even close to where he claims they are (as other posters have already pointed out), which is not only not helpful, but actively distracting, and Jester still being in "excited mode" well after the fight is over (a "pipe down, Jester" command would be helpful  ).

 

The latter one would be that calling out every TLAM and TALD and friendly missile with "missile, missile, missile" and telling me to "break right!" is not only grinding on my nerves, but also has a "boy that cried wolf" effect. The one time he calls out a real missile, you don't believe him.   But once you know what's going on and your SA is good, you learn to live with it. 

 

Oh, and it's a good thing I never fly with a service automatic, because I swear if he doesn't shut up during AAR.......  

 

(a "matter of fact" Jester filter at some point in the future would be nice to have - just read out fuel state during AAR, thankyouverymuch.  ). 

 

My personal Jester wishlist would be  that future updates would "teach" Jester to maybe read out airspeed during ACM, and the option to have him read more (interactive? dare I dream? ) checklists and other helpful stuff (DLC deployed, abeam of the boat/runway, maybe even call the ball)

 

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Jayhawk1971