Need to vent

[cobrabase]

Okay... the Su-25T is insane.

 

1. Nothing crashes you better than the insane autopilot modes. The "combat" mode is great for the other side seeing how it cannot keep altitude. They are the most user unfriendly systems on the aircraft.

 

2. Seeing how useless the combat mode is I thought I try radar altimeter autopilot mode to make a stable platform just to FIND my target. Yeah right! The thing pitches you so high you lose your target in the TV viewer... even with ground stabilization mode.

 

3. There is some kind of incompatibility with the HOTAS Cougar. I've never seen so many malfunctions, mis-keys or crashes than with this combination.

 

4. The aircraft is SO overloaded and such a fuel guzzler that it's a hazard to fly. Yeah, that's right, I actually said it was HAZARDOUS to fly. To me it's out of safety limits for human flying. The turn radius is insanely wide. It's horrendous! How can you evade missiles or gunfire? It's like trying to con an aircraft carrier in the sky! Don't tell me that I've overloaded it with fuel or weapons... I strip virtually everything off of it but the weapons I need and the fuel I need. Have you ever practically crashed on TAKEOFF in any other aircraft?! It's THAT unstable that you can lose control of it with ZERO wind ON TAKEOFF!!!!! W T F?!

 

5. Let's talk about how switching off an autopilot mode leaves you careening into the ground. This is because you inherit the trim settings from when it was on. Ever try hitting the reset trim key? Doesn't help at all doesn't it? Nice!

 

I'm actually considering just forgetting FC Su-25T this morning. It's just NOT FUN!

 

Ahhhh... feel much better. Sorry to be the AVGN this morning but this aircraft is shockingly bad.

Edited July 17, 2008 by cobrabase

[-sulan-]

I have none of the problems you describe, except that I can't reset my trims which I find acceptable since I believe you can't do that on the real thing either.

 

With proper energy management I find it agile enough, as long as I keep my speed up..

Just go alittle easy on her :) Be gentle to her and she'll treat you nicely..

 

Oh I find Barometric Hold very useful while looking for targets, but if you don't keep your speed high enough, it won't keep altitude..

[cobrabase]

Thanks for the help. I'll give it a try.

 

Do you use flaps when you turn?

[Manawar]

Im sorry you feel that way. I SU-25T is a real challenge to fly but honestly nothing is more fun to me. The flight model may or maynot be correct. I dont know have never "really" flown one in RL. I would suggest you just take your time with it, you will settle into it im sure. You just have to fly it within the correct parameters or it will fight you back and win.

 

Best of luck and keep at it!

 

S!

[thereminqblank]

First of all: I hope you're using your pedals in turns!

 

The Su-27 isn't modelled with rudder input - the Su-25T is!

[Boberro]

Hehe :D

 

I rather not agree with most people who say that autopilot is your friendly in this plane. IMO the best autopilot works at ALT-1, ALT-2, and H, A (A when we don't have NAV, BRB, NOC mode choosen). Rest is risk. I tried to set Autopilot on NAV mode to fly on path but it would more crash plane that fly normnally (I set it in straight flight).

 

Combat mode... ? I used it once and I don't want back to it. Better do that without AP "help", of course it is only my opinion, rest maybe is excited this mode :P

 

About HOTAS I don't know, I don't use joysticks, ect things.

 

About overloading... In real life this plane is also overloaded. To avoid missiles, Shilka's gun you have to learn this plane. He\She\It whatever you call it\him\her needs to understand and patience. Turn radius aren't too big and small but don't forget it is big cow, brick, which isn't fighter, only bomber. I always take much as this brick can carry and my plane and me are happy :rofl:

 

Always after trim, autopilot modes trims are unbalanced. They aren't if you turn off AP when you are stabilized and fly straight ahead. Automatic trim reset doesn't work.

 

Ahhhh... feel much better. Sorry to be the AVGN this morning but this aircraft is shockingly bad.

 

I am sorry but not plane is bad - but you are... Many pilots fly well (more than well) on this plane despite of it has AFM. And they do job very good.

 

These are my opinions, I don't like autopilot modes I prefer do it myself but others prefer do it by auto...

 

Anyway to learn how to fly it needs time. Everything which is unkown for us needs time to learn. And this is what you should do if u wanna fly well, saying that something is wrong won't help you in flight ;)

Edited July 17, 2008 by Boberro

[S77th-konkussion]

Remember that virtually all things that affect the flight characteristics of a real plane are modeled in the Su25. I'll mention payload imbalance specifically becuse this is likely one of the things causing you big problems. The autopilots play a role here. If I'm going to be engaging with a heavy weapon- I must plan out my attack. Let's use the KH29T (Russian Maverick) as an example.

 

Ideally- not mandatory- but ideally- you want to select a situation to employ BOTH missiles so you are not continually fighting her every step of the way. If you choose to fly with an imbalanced load- you'll have to trim HEAVILY or make heavy use of various autopilot modes to compensate.

 

Think before shooting:

 

If I'm attacking a single vehicle, I might like to select a different weapon, such as the Vikhr **IF** that vehicle does not present an extreme hazard to my continued ability to fly.

 

If that single vehicle is a TUNG or a ToR or similar..

If the are 2 vehicles or a convoy.. then the 29T's are a good choice, most of the time.

 

In case you didn't notice- the T frog handles like a bus on a moto-X track. You generally need more time (re:distance) to acquire, and engage with this aircraft (especially if the weapon requires platform guidance) The 29T being fire & forget- cuts you a little bit of slack.

 

When you are confident that you have chosen the right weapon, acquire & lock up your target. You must be mindful of your aspect to that target- if you lock him up on the edge of the gimbals- you'll lose him. Ensure your flight path will allow you to track him on the Shkval, and is not going to send you into the ground.

 

Set auto pilot mode ATT hold. Not "ALT" but "ATT". This will stabilize the plane while you engage. Release the weapon, and then if warranted- slew to your next target, and fire again. Disengage auto pilot, and make your defensive maneuvers.

 

If you're attacking a single dangerous target you may not need to use the auto pilot, as you will be firing 2 at the same spot pretty quickly thereby regaining payload balance quickly. Your call.

Edited July 17, 2008 by S77th-konkussion

[GGTharos]

Okay... the Su-25T is insane.

 

1. Nothing crashes you better than the insane autopilot modes. The "combat" mode is great for the other side seeing how it cannot keep altitude. They are the most user unfriendly systems on the aircraft.

 

The autopilot is not your friend. You must know how it works to use it. There's no magic, and it will only compensate for some amount of control deviation - it won't completely take over the systems.

 

2. Seeing how useless the combat mode is I thought I try radar altimeter autopilot mode to make a stable platform just to FIND my target. Yeah right! The thing pitches you so high you lose your target in the TV viewer... even with ground stabilization mode.

 

This is because you used the wrong altimeter for stable flight ;) Radar altimeter is for nifty things like 50m altitude ingress to target.

 

3. There is some kind of incompatibility with the HOTAS Cougar. I've never seen so many malfunctions, mis-keys or crashes than with this combination.

 

This is weird, but it does happen with LO now and then, and with any stick. It may not be specifically related to LO actually, but perhaps to some interaction of stick/keyboard drivers. Whatever is screwing up on you, if you can find it happening consistently, try putting it on a different button.

 

4. The aircraft is SO overloaded and such a fuel guzzler that it's a hazard to fly. Yeah, that's right, I actually said it was HAZARDOUS to fly. To me it's out of safety limits for human flying. The turn radius is insanely wide. It's horrendous! How can you evade missiles or gunfire? It's like trying to con an aircraft carrier in the sky! Don't tell me that I've overloaded it with fuel or weapons... I strip virtually everything off of it but the weapons I need and the fuel I need. Have you ever practically crashed on TAKEOFF in any other aircraft?! It's THAT unstable that you can lose control of it with ZERO wind ON TAKEOFF!!!!! W T F?!

 

The other aircraft have a much easier flight model to deal with. I'll guarantee you a whole bunch of people will crash the Ka-50 on take-off :D

Remember that you're flying a bomb truck - it's not meant to be zippy, and is in fact somewhat under-powered. You have to finesse. If you yank and bank like you do with the SFM planes, it won't forgive you.

Evasion of weapons is prevention - first, you want to keep yourself outside of enemy WEZ. If you can't keep yourself outside of enemy WEZ use preventive measures to help you defend against them, such as: Try to approach with some aspect to put the incoming on your beam faster.

Have your jammers on. Drop countermeasures pre-emptively.

[Case]

Okay... the Su-25T is insane.

Welcome to the advanced flight model! :D

 

Concerning the different autopilot modes. When using the 'a' key in NAV mode, the plane will try to fly to the selected waypoint along the route specified. This means that if you engage the autopilot, the plane can maneuver quite radically to fulfill it's job. Only use it when you want to follow the waypoints or use it when you are not in NAV mode (in which case it will level the plane and maintain altitude if I'm not mistaken).

 

Use the 'h' key for altitude hold, but remember that the plane may roll to the left or right due to an unbalanced load, cross wind or damage.

 

Use the 'alt+1' (attitude hold) key to set the attitude; pitch, yaw and roll.

 

'alt+2' (altitude and roll hold) will set the altitude and roll... handy for when you want to make a turn.

 

'alt+3' (level flight) will level the plane and keep it at the same altitude. You can use this as a panic button when you've messed up the trim.

 

The route following mode of 'alt+6' will fly you to the point on the ground that you have marked with your Shkval targeting system. This is a crucial mode when you want to attack targets with laser guided missiles (Kh25ML, Vikhr) or the gunpods. You can actually steer your plane in this mode by moving the target designator around. I think this mode transitions to 'alt+3' when you fly past the point you marked.

 

Finally, 'alt+9' disengages the autopilot.

 

Now, in practice, because the plane will become unbalanced when you launch a missile, it is advisable to put the plane into attitude hold or route following mode before you launch a missile. This way, the aircraft automatically adjusts its trim when the missile leaves the rail. If you disengage the autopilot afterwards, the plane is still nicely trimmed. However, you can always retrim your aircraft by briefly turning on attitude hold.

 

But as I said before... be patient! You don't have the energy to do radical moves, so you have to do things with patience.

[tflash]

Cobrabase, I had the same opinion as you for a long time of the Su-25T. I always had the impression that it had that tendency to fall out of the sky like a brick.

 

It emerged I had it all wrong and just flew the aircracft the wrong way. If I were you, I would first try to fly the aircraft like you would in FSX, before trying combat.

 

Before using the - excellent - autopilot modes, just try to fly the aircraft by trimming. If you cannot manage trim, you cannot fly the Su-25T. I find an FSX Boeing 737 an excellent lead-in trainer for this "fighter jet". It's not a a FBW Viper, so much is clear, and "Advanced Flight model" means the MODEL is advanced, not the flight ;)

[Frostie]

Another tip, straight from the readme,

 

When setting the joystick response pitch curve for aircraft with Advanced Flight Model (Su-25 and Su-25T), it is recommended that you remove any joystick insensitivity near the neutral / centering area (the so-called “dead zone”). You should also have a linear response curve; meaning that the joystick pitch setting curve should be a straight line from corner to corner of the response field. This is recommended because any nonlinearity will distort the correct balancing of the aircraft. This AFM balancing consists of angle of attack, G-loading, and control stick longitudinal diversion. A dead zone would create a “flat” response area (local control insensitivity zone) when balancing the dependencies in the mid-angle of attack range (5 - 10°). This would make angle of attack and G-loading control difficult.

 

For aircraft with AFM, it is also recommended that you reduce nonlinearity of the yaw response curve. This is because the nose wheel turning mechanism of Su-25 and Su-25T possesses a differential mechanism that nonlinearly turns the nose wheel according to the amount of pedal deflection. Hence, the yaw response curve nonlinearity will cause a significant increase of nose wheel turning angle. Such nonlinearity when giving rudder inputs will make it difficult to hold the aircraft on the runway during taxi, take offs and landings.

[GGTharos]

It is too bad you changed your opinion.

 

You were right the first time around :D

 

Cobrabase, I had the same opinion as you for a long time of the Su-25T. I always had the impression that it had that tendency to fall out of the sky like a brick.

 

It emerged I had it all wrong and just flew the aircracft the wrong way. If I were you, I would first try to fly the aircraft like you would in FSX, before trying combat.

[cobrabase]

I think I know what the problem is!

 

My HOTAS Cougar is turning it's toes up and dying on me!

 

Great!

 

No WONDER the plane is uncontrollable!

[159th_Viper]

Okay... the Su-25T is insane.

 

1. Nothing crashes you better than the insane autopilot modes. The "combat" mode is great for the other side seeing how it cannot keep altitude. They are the most user unfriendly systems on the aircraft.

 

2. Seeing how useless the combat mode is I thought I try radar altimeter autopilot mode to make a stable platform just to FIND my target. Yeah right! The thing pitches you so high you lose your target in the TV viewer... even with ground stabilization mode.

 

3. There is some kind of incompatibility with the HOTAS Cougar. I've never seen so many malfunctions, mis-keys or crashes than with this combination.

 

4. The aircraft is SO overloaded and such a fuel guzzler that it's a hazard to fly. Yeah, that's right, I actually said it was HAZARDOUS to fly. To me it's out of safety limits for human flying. The turn radius is insanely wide. It's horrendous! How can you evade missiles or gunfire? It's like trying to con an aircraft carrier in the sky! Don't tell me that I've overloaded it with fuel or weapons... I strip virtually everything off of it but the weapons I need and the fuel I need. Have you ever practically crashed on TAKEOFF in any other aircraft?! It's THAT unstable that you can lose control of it with ZERO wind ON TAKEOFF!!!!! W T F?!

 

5. Let's talk about how switching off an autopilot mode leaves you careening into the ground. This is because you inherit the trim settings from when it was on. Ever try hitting the reset trim key? Doesn't help at all doesn't it? Nice!

 

I'm actually considering just forgetting FC Su-25T this morning. It's just NOT FUN!

 

Ahhhh... feel much better. Sorry to be the AVGN this morning but this aircraft is shockingly bad.

 

 

 

How long have you been Flying the T-Toad?

 

 

You gotta crawl before you can walk, M8 ;)

 

 

Rather than dissing the Lady - take the time and learn to fly!

 

 

And yes - I've been flying the T-Toad exclusively now for approx 2 years and I'm still learning with every flight.

 

 

Trust me when I tell you - In the hands of a capable Virtual Pilot she Kicks A$$ 6 ways from Sunday: Ain't nothin' comes close and thats a fact! :)

 

 

Edit: Aye - a Wonky Flightstick would be akward indeed (just saw post) :)

 

Edited July 17, 2008 by 159th_Viper

[Roosterfeet]

Another tip, straight from the readme,

 

When setting the joystick response pitch curve for aircraft with Advanced Flight Model (Su-25 and Su-25T), it is recommended that you remove any joystick insensitivity near the neutral / centering area (the so-called “dead zone”). You should also have a linear response curve; meaning that the joystick pitch setting curve should be a straight line from corner to corner of the response field. This is recommended because any nonlinearity will distort the correct balancing of the aircraft. This AFM balancing consists of angle of attack, G-loading, and control stick longitudinal diversion. A dead zone would create a “flat” response area (local control insensitivity zone) when balancing the dependencies in the mid-angle of attack range (5 - 10°). This would make angle of attack and G-loading control difficult.

 

So then leave Roll as the default non-linear curve? I tried setting both pitch and roll to linear response curves and found the 25T to be almost uncontrollable with both my X-45 and MS Force Feedback2 sticks.

[Vekkinho]

That's the best plane in FC to learn everything on energy management!

[Vekkinho]

BTW what's wrong with your Cougar, what's happening?!

 

Post your problems, perhaps we can help!

[RedTiger]

I'd just like to reiterate what people have already said; this plane is not easy to fly. Its not just you, its the plane. The plane itself is heavy. Even clean with a nominal fuel load, its a handful compared to the SFM planes. As you have experienced, you often are fighting the plane as much as you're fighting anything else. To this day I wonder how the real pilots are expected to put up with it!

 

The key for me in attaining some level of comfort with it was to think of it in terms of flying a WWII-era plane or at least a modern jet, like the F-14A, that has a poor thrust to weight ratio. You have to get a good feel about how much energy you have at any given moment and what you can do with it. To keep it in simple terms, just keep your speed up. Try various loads and experiment with how fast you have to be to do an immelman, or at least an oblique vertical move that resembles an immelman. Also realize that it rolls like a crippled whale. You lack agility and have to make up for it other places.

 

I never even bother with the auto pilot modes other than the altitude hold. I just use the hat on my stick for constant trim along witht he altitude hold.

 

One last thing, if you have the time, try to be patient. You can't always make a pass, flop back around and make another one. Make sure you extend away from the target area enough to give youself time to lock up another target or line up properly for dumb weapons.

Edited July 17, 2008 by RedTiger

[GGTharos]

To this day I wonder how the real pilots are expected to put up with it!

 

The base ball bat theory of learning patience is applied for the 9 months of flight school.

 

... like the F-14A, that has a poor thrust to weight ratio.

 

If the F-14A has poor TWR, the Su-25T is below the poverty line :D

 

Also realize that it rolls like a crippled whale. You lack agility and have to make up for it other places.

 

And to add to this - your best roll rate will be at 0 AoA/0g. So if you want to roll fast, unload the jet! Also, roll rate and turn rate depend on your airspeed. Keep it up, or suck it up. Flaps in a turn are a no-no. They're drag devices, and they shouldn't be modifying your turn rate a whole lot like they do in the SFM planes. Further, having the flaps out can decrease the structural strength of the wing, but I don't know if this is modeled.

[hitman]

Like someone else pointed out a few dozen threads back, you dont use the controls to control the aircraft, you use the trim tabs to control the aircraft. The T handles much like a bolemic airliner. Making the T fly like a fighter jet is like having sex with OJ Simpson: you can kick and scream, but youll just roll over and die in the middle of it.

[cobrabase]

1. The problem is confirmed. It WAS the HOTAS.

 

2. Did not mean to disrespect the T-toad out of term. Now that I KNOW it's not the physics of the model I take back what I said.

 

I thought that all of these control issues were due to the flight model. They obviously were not.

 

I say WERE because they appear to be fixed... for the moment. I was speaking to a few experts at the Cougar forum and they suspect that I have a short inside. An engineer from Georgia Teach was about to talk me through isolating the problem.

 

I tape my stick to my flight chair as a center stick. I cut the tape off and turned the unit over. Before I opened it up I decided to test it through the keytester one more time. ALL THE GARBAGE KEYS BEING SENT TO THE PC WERE SILENT!!!!

 

It's like some kind of miracle!

 

I loaded up Su-25T mission #1 (not in the campaign, the singles) against the bridges and she was ROCK STEADY!!!! Fully weighted she flew like a champ!!!

 

Once again, did not mean to "dis" the jet. Actually thought it was THAT difficult to fly. Get this... apparently one of the random commands being sent to the PC was the time accelerating command!!! So I was even trying to fly in a DIFFERENT SPACE TIME CONTINUUM!!!!!!

 

:joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick::joystick:

[Cosmonaut]

The T flies great .. completely different to all the other flyables but she's one ugly biaatch so what do you expect ;) .

 

The only auto pilot I use when flying the T frog is "H" and that's it.. seems to work perfect for me and I have a M$FFB2 joystick, ..oh sometimes I will use the camera lock then "A" function so it automatically flies the perfect course to the target.

 

Just don't forget to take your time lining up you runs and that way you wont have any evasion issues but if you fly it like an A10 then you better map "ctrl+E+E+E" to your joystick trigger :D.

 

Anyway you're probably having some joystick issues .. ditch the cougar and get yourself a nice M$FFB stick.. :smartass:.

 

Edit: Ooopps didn't see page two.. all is good now :) .

Edited July 17, 2008 by Cosmonaut

[159th_Viper]

.....ditch the cougar.....

 

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......................!

 

And away we go again - another Who's got the Biggest, Baddest MoFoing Flightstick on the Block debate :joystick:

 

 

:D :P :D

[cobrabase]

Oh lord... Look... didn't mean to start the flames.

[hitman]

Oh lord... Look... didn't mean to start the flames.

Flames? The only flames seen here are coming out of your joystick! :P