Phoenix missile broken on latest beta patch?

[key_stroked]

2 hours ago, Naquaii said:

 

In conclusion the AWG-9 is very much not a "look up radar", pulse doppler was the very function that allowed for look down-shoot down. It's just not that great at it against heavily maneuvering targets, especially in TWS.

 

Wouldn't going below your target allow for pulse to work without ground clutter, and also eliminate the drawbacks of the pulse doppler filter issues?

[westr]

I can’t remember when I last had a Phoenix kill. 45nm launches and supporting the missile until I can see the flashing on the repeater. But never hits the target. I could shoot 6 and not hit one target. I guess that’s how it was maybe. 

[AH_Solid_Snake]

At least in PVP multiplayer I think a much higher Pk and satisfaction can be had treating the Phoenix as a souped up Sparrow, firing in STT from beyond typical AIM120 ranges on the BuddySpike servers results in far better effect than firing off multiple missiles in TWS against fighters. Even one at a time hoping to get it to go active, against humans you have zero chance, as soon as F-14 nails are persistent on the RHAW gear, launch warning or not, any player that’s not asleep will work in a few check turns to put you on their 3-9 line, even for a few seconds, and completely trash that TWS shot. Just as they / it should.

 

The idea the Phoenix is ineffective against fighters is ludicrous but equally so is expecting to ripple off a load of them and to get a good return on your investment. The big advantage with your big stick is that they might get a lot of warning in STT, but at 20 miles or less I’ve seen it hit the target while the motor was still burning.

[Noctrach]

2 hours ago, Halcyon said:

 

Wouldn't going below your target allow for pulse to work without ground clutter, and also eliminate the drawbacks of the pulse doppler filter issues?

 

Pulse has its own issues you wouldn't have with PD though, such as ambiguous doppler information and high susceptibility to chaff.

Pulse mode in the F-14 is LPRF (accurate range, ambiguous closure), where Pulse-Doppler is HPRF (accurate closure, ambiguous range)

Both have their pros and cons but for providing target tracking at range, PD is definitely more reliable.

 

37 minutes ago, westr said:

I can’t remember when I last had a Phoenix kill. 45nm launches and supporting the missile until I can see the flashing on the repeater. But never hits the target. I could shoot 6 and not hit one target. I guess that’s how it was maybe. 

45 miles is a pretty long shot depending on geometry, altitude and target type. An aware target can just do a slice-back and outrun it. Or use a variety of other fun tricks to spoof either your AWG-9 or the missile.

 

Against AI in particular you're probably just losing lock because the AI will always respond to a launch at a set distance, no matter whether the missile actually went active or not. I usually set the target size gate to Large against AI because that way at least I know the missile is active before they start their little freak-show. Not uncommon to see 50-60 mile hits this way if fired at decent speed and altitude.

[TLTeo]

6 hours ago, Naquaii said:

In regards to AI targets I'd personally like to see the AIs magical ability to detect launches disappear, having them always do it is just breaking stuff. But at least it's possible to set a lower skill on the AI which mitigates this somewhat

This is also something mission makers should always do to mitigate the AI's flight model dodginess at higher settings. Unfortunately, many people don't because "the mission should be challenging" - which is honestly meaningless when that challenge is in the form of dumb but physics-defying opposition.

[Triggerjo23]

12 hours ago, Coxy_99 said:

 

Ill give you the reason why they dont track.

 

1. There closure rate is poor at mach 0.8

2. Getting below your target after you launch will keep an awsome track.

3. If the bandit beams the f-14 radar the track will also be lost (70s Tech) Not 2010. 

4. Problem is these people have relied on active straight off the rail, With no timer.

 

These issues are down to the people flying it completely wrong, And i must say have no issues with any aim-54 variant.

 

HOWEVER there is one issue, When the pilot pulls hard in an populated server, Any human rio will come across dysnc and warp which WILL destroy 1. Your track and 2. The human RIO picking the target back up.

 

Thats all on the "My missile dont hit anything".

 

I have had hours of fun with a human rio. 

 

One last thing to clarify F-14 radar was look up only radar, I believe F-15 was the first look down radar i believe i maybe wrong.

 

 
You yourself say you lose half or more of your Phoenix's per sortie. You are also assuming how people fly.

If you can't Crank or turn during a TWS launch then how can you descend?

A crank and boards to 0.8M is a valid real word tactic and it was used in the F14 too. Cranking to 0.8M preserves range and forces even greater flight time into the oppositions missile.

Who said the bandits have been beaming? Tracks drop when you are both nose pure. What does nose pure mean you ask? It means the bandit is in my HUD and I am in the bandits HUD.

Tracks drop when we are both above the horizon line and nose pure. This is not a look down scenario.

No one has been relying on Active launches. The issue here is not a lack of understanding or over expectation of the radar but a lack of comprehension of the problems people are describing.

RIO or no RIO the issue I am describing still occurs.

What you have to understand is that I am not saying it is the Tomcat either. It may just be a DCS issue as the same thing seems to happen on both the 16 and 18. I don't know however what causes it exactly but I know it is not intended as when testing engagement tactics in 1v1 PVP the TWS reliably tracks 100% of the time even when I crank and don't dive below the bandit and I slow down to 0.8M. However on a loaded server with more 4 or 5 people the WCS reliably does not track.

I know when a missile is lost becuase the bandit is too low or is manoeuvering too heavily or in a notch. The scanarios I describe are not those instances but rather instances when the WCS should have no issues. To go from 100% reliable tracking to 0% reliable tracking using the same engagement tactics just becuase server conditions have changed is a rather blatent issue.

 

11 hours ago, dundun92 said:

No you cant as of quite a few patches ago, do you have a track/tacview/video of this happening?

I have tracks of F18 vs F18 practices but will have to dig for them. Also Tacviews but will have to dig for those too. Do remember that there have been updates to the 120 since those patches and sometimes changes do not actualy make it into the patch notes.

 

12 hours ago, Naquaii said:

In regards to the TCS launches it is true that it can guide the missiles to an extent. The AIM-54 will launch active along the TCS line of sight so the missile itself should be indicated on the RWR. As for the AIM-7 the illuminator on the AWG-9 will activate when you launch so in this case the target will get an F-14 missile launch indication. We tested this when we implemented it and it did work back then for sure. There might be new bug here but we'd need help to reproduce it.

The missile launch not giving an engagement warning during Radar slave is very easy to reproduce folowing these steps.

1. STT lock the bandit.
2. TCS slave to Radar.
3. Radar slave to TCS.

At this stage the bandit should have a lock warning.

4. Hit PD or P search.

The bandit no longer has a lock warning. Symbology on the TID expresses Radar slave to TCS.

5. Launch Phoenix.

The bandit does not get an engagement warning and still has no lock warning. The missile can not be notched and will track as long as you have a TCS track. This works 100% of the time.

Easy to test, get an F14 pilot and RIO to go through these steps vs another player in the opposing aircraft. It will only work at or under 40nm as aircraft on the TID only seem to render inside of those ranges.

[westr]

Can the target size gate be set via the jester wheel? 

[draconus]

25 minutes ago, westr said:

Can the target size gate be set via the jester wheel? 

yes

[Triggerjo23]

2 hours ago, westr said:

Can the target size gate be set via the jester wheel? 

It should be under BVR, Radar modes, Target size I think.

[Naquaii]

11 hours ago, Triggerjo23 said:

The missile launch not giving an engagement warning during Radar slave is very easy to reproduce folowing these steps.

1. STT lock the bandit.
2. TCS slave to Radar.
3. Radar slave to TCS.

At this stage the bandit should have a lock warning.

4. Hit PD or P search.

The bandit no longer has a lock warning. Symbology on the TID expresses Radar slave to TCS.

5. Launch Phoenix.

The bandit does not get an engagement warning and still has no lock warning. The missile can not be notched and will track as long as you have a TCS track. This works 100% of the time.

Easy to test, get an F14 pilot and RIO to go through these steps vs another player in the opposing aircraft. It will only work at or under 40nm as aircraft on the TID only seem to render inside of those ranges.

 

Thanks for that explanation, didn't realise you were exiting into search. In the case of the AIM-7 that would force the illuminator into flood and likely trash the missile, as for the AIM-54 the missile itself should still give missile lock as in this case it is the missiles own radar.

 

When testing this implementation we likely missed this and I guess it's likely due to us sometimes forgetting that it's possible to not follow SOP! 

 

I will reproduce and track this issue so we can have it fixed.

21 hours ago, Halcyon said:

 

Wouldn't going below your target allow for pulse to work without ground clutter, and also eliminate the drawbacks of the pulse doppler filter issues?

 

Yes, but that still doesn't negate the fact that the radar is considered a look-down, shoot-down radar due to the pulse doppler modes.

[NakedSquirrel]

13 hours ago, Triggerjo23 said:

 
You yourself say you lose half or more of your Phoenix's per sortie. You are also assuming how people fly.

If you can't Crank or turn during a TWS launch then how can you descend?

A crank and boards to 0.8M is a valid real word tactic and it was used in the F14 too. Cranking to 0.8M preserves range and forces even greater flight time into the oppositions missile.

Who said the bandits have been beaming? Tracks drop when you are both nose pure. What does nose pure mean you ask? It means the bandit is in my HUD and I am in the bandits HUD.

Tracks drop when we are both above the horizon line and nose pure. This is not a look down scenario.

No one has been relying on Active launches. The issue here is not a lack of understanding or over expectation of the radar but a lack of comprehension of the problems people are describing.

RIO or no RIO the issue I am describing still occurs.

What you have to understand is that I am not saying it is the Tomcat either. It may just be a DCS issue as the same thing seems to happen on both the 16 and 18. I don't know however what causes it exactly but I know it is not intended as when testing engagement tactics in 1v1 PVP the TWS reliably tracks 100% of the time even when I crank and don't dive below the bandit and I slow down to 0.8M. However on a loaded server with more 4 or 5 people the WCS reliably does not track.

I know when a missile is lost becuase the bandit is too low or is manoeuvering too heavily or in a notch. The scanarios I describe are not those instances but rather instances when the WCS should have no issues. To go from 100% reliable tracking to 0% reliable tracking using the same engagement tactics just becuase server conditions have changed is a rather blatent issue.

 

I have tracks of F18 vs F18 practices but will have to dig for them. Also Tacviews but will have to dig for those too. Do remember that there have been updates to the 120 since those patches and sometimes changes do not actualy make it into the patch notes.

 

The missile launch not giving an engagement warning during Radar slave is very easy to reproduce folowing these steps.

1. STT lock the bandit.
2. TCS slave to Radar.
3. Radar slave to TCS.

At this stage the bandit should have a lock warning.

4. Hit PD or P search.

The bandit no longer has a lock warning. Symbology on the TID expresses Radar slave to TCS.

5. Launch Phoenix.

The bandit does not get an engagement warning and still has no lock warning. The missile can not be notched and will track as long as you have a TCS track. This works 100% of the time.

Easy to test, get an F14 pilot and RIO to go through these steps vs another player in the opposing aircraft. It will only work at or under 40nm as aircraft on the TID only seem to render inside of those ranges.

 

PD gives the missile enough information to know when to go active?  I thought you needed to be in RWS or TWS in order to get range data? (Edit: NVM Didn't see Naq's reply)

 

I need to play around with these missiles a bit more.  I'm never sure when losing and regaining a lock if/when the missile might start tracking again.  I usually just chalk a lost lock to: "Bye bye $500k" and get ready to toss another.  They are great for harassment, and are nice for getting you in range for a WVR fight, but I feel you have to get lucky or catch someone completely off-guard to get a BVR kill.

Edited April 7, 2021 by NakedSquirrel

[Skysurfer]

47 minutes ago, NakedSquirrel said:

 

PD gives the missile enough information to know when to go active?  I thought you needed to be in RWS or TWS in order to get range data? (Edit: NVM Didn't see Naq's reply)

 

I need to play around with these missiles a bit more.  I'm never sure when losing and regaining a lock if/when the missile might start tracking again.  I usually just chalk a lost lock to: "Bye bye $500k" and get ready to toss another.  They are great for harassment, and are nice for getting you in range for a WVR fight, but I feel you have to get lucky or catch someone completely off-guard to get a BVR kill.

 

 

Depends, a competent player wont die to a Phoenix easily or at all. Try using STT, playing with the MLC filter and maintaining lock until impact. 

[dundun92]

51 minutes ago, NakedSquirrel said:

but I feel you have to get lucky or catch someone completely off-guard to get a BVR kill.

Thats true of every missile, ever. You simply arent going to get a BVR kill against a guy who has SA and knows what to do. If one of these is not met, thats when you get a kill.

[AH_Solid_Snake]

3 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Depends, a competent player wont die to a Phoenix easily or at all. Try using STT, playing with the MLC filter and maintaining lock until impact. 

 

Quoted for truth, the best way to get results isn’t magic TWS shots from 60nm, it’s working yourself into a position where all the STT warning in the world won’t escape the NEZ of your big stick.

[westr]

1 hour ago, dundun92 said:

Thats true of every missile, ever. You simply arent going to get a BVR kill against a guy who has SA and knows what to do. If one of these is not met, thats when you get a kill.

So effectively it’s not necessarily the missiles but the a.i in modern aircraft needs changing, because they have to much & too effective SA. I’m talking single player obviously. 

[Skysurfer]

17 minutes ago, westr said:

So effectively it’s not necessarily the missiles but the a.i in modern aircraft needs changing, because they have to much & too effective SA. I’m talking single player obviously. 

 

Depends. Some time a SU-24 will perfectly notch my launches, another time a 4 ship of Flankers fly straight into 4 TWS launched AIM-54's.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Skysurfer

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

On 4/7/2021 at 7:33 AM, Triggerjo23 said:

The missile launch not giving an engagement warning during Radar slave is very easy to reproduce folowing these steps.

1. STT lock the bandit.
2. TCS slave to Radar.
3. Radar slave to TCS.

At this stage the bandit should have a lock warning.

4. Hit PD or P search.

The bandit no longer has a lock warning. Symbology on the TID expresses Radar slave to TCS.

5. Launch Phoenix.

The bandit does not get an engagement warning and still has no lock warning. The missile can not be notched and will track as long as you have a TCS track. This works 100% of the time.

Is this still the earlier bug when phoenixe's would never give an active warning when fired in TWS , basically being 100% stealth missiles ?

Or is this a new bug ? 

How would this look like in the other plane ? 
I imagine you'd see :
1) RWR (14) (looking at you)
2) RWR lock warning (STT lock)
3) RWR lock warning goes away (but you'd still be secretely STT locked ??!) 
4) Do you still get an active warning from the missile itself 0.1 seconds before death or not  ? 

 

[captain_dalan]

On 4/6/2021 at 10:51 PM, westr said:

I can’t remember when I last had a Phoenix kill. 45nm launches and supporting the missile until I can see the flashing on the repeater. But never hits the target. I could shoot 6 and not hit one target. I guess that’s how it was maybe. 

SP or MP?

[westr]

Just now, captain_dalan said:

SP or MP?

SP. 

[captain_dalan]

On 4/6/2021 at 11:37 PM, AH_Solid_Snake said:

At least in PVP multiplayer I think a much higher Pk and satisfaction can be had treating the Phoenix as a souped up Sparrow, firing in STT from beyond typical AIM120 ranges on the BuddySpike servers results in far better effect than firing off multiple missiles in TWS against fighters. Even one at a time hoping to get it to go active, against humans you have zero chance, as soon as F-14 nails are persistent on the RHAW gear, launch warning or not, any player that’s not asleep will work in a few check turns to put you on their 3-9 line, even for a few seconds, and completely trash that TWS shot. Just as they / it should.

 

The idea the Phoenix is ineffective against fighters is ludicrous but equally so is expecting to ripple off a load of them and to get a good return on your investment. The big advantage with your big stick is that they might get a lot of warning in STT, but at 20 miles or less I’ve seen it hit the target while the motor was still burning.

Curious. In SP (the only time when i tried an STT shot) the TWS shots work or don't (essentially a die roll), but STT shots never work.

1 minute ago, westr said:

SP. 

Try launching from inside 40Nm and from a mach1+ platform.

[westr]

17 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

Ok I shall do. My altitude above the targets or below when launching?, and supporting the radar below the targets or same sort of altitude? 

Edited April 10, 2021 by westr

[captain_dalan]

4 minutes ago, westr said:

Ok I shall do. My altitude above the targets or below when launching?, and supporting the radar below the targets or same sort of altitude? 

I usually test every patch in the same mission, so minimum variables change, either one of my own training missions or one provided by the developer. In this case the Persian Gulf BVR mission is a good start.
You start far enough from the MiGs and with altitude to spare. I start by cranking left or right, plugging a full burner (in the A), trying to get the bogies (at this point they are still bogies) 20-30 degrees to either side and i descent into a shallow dive to some 3-5000ft bellow them. I think they start at angels 19 or something. As the range closes and my knots increase, i go nose level and crank (gently) into the targets (i usually start this 37-40NM away), reset the radar and wait for Jester to sort them. Once they are confirmed hostile (by this time i am almost nose pointed at them) i launch and continue the crank to the opposite 20-30 degrees. If a track is lost along the way i launch again.
In this particular mission, i usually get around a 50% kill rate with this method. STT...... 0%. I've never hit an AI with an STT fired Phoenix.

[westr]

5 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

I usually test every patch in the same mission, so minimum variables change, either one of my own training missions or one provided by the developer. In this case the Persian Gulf BVR mission is a good start.
You start far enough from the MiGs and with altitude to spare. I start by cranking left or right, plugging a full burner (in the A), trying to get the bogies (at this point they are still bogies) 20-30 degrees to either side and i descent into a shallow dive to some 3-5000ft bellow them. I think they start at angels 19 or something. As the range closes and my knots increase, i go nose level and crank (gently) into the targets (i usually start this 37-40NM away), reset the radar and wait for Jester to sort them. Once they are confirmed hostile (by this time i am almost nose pointed at them) i launch and continue the crank to the opposite 20-30 degrees. If a track is lost along the way i launch again.
In this particular mission, i usually get around a 50% kill rate with this method. STT...... 0%. I've never hit an AI with an STT fired Phoenix.

Ok thanks makes sense I shall give it a try. 

[Callsign JoNay]

On 4/7/2021 at 3:46 PM, westr said:

So effectively it’s not necessarily the missiles but the a.i in modern aircraft needs changing, because they have to much & too effective SA. I’m talking single player obviously. 

 

I think the missile still has issues. Why is it going for chaff at all? I brought up this question on page 1 and still haven't seen it addressed. Either a radar is vulnerable to chaff, but immune to notching. Or it's vulnerable to notching, but immune to chaff. It shouldn't be both ways, but that's the way the 54s are in the sim.

[Noctrach]

13 minutes ago, Callsign JoNay said:

 

I think the missile still has issues. Why is it going for chaff at all? I brought up this question on page 1 and still haven't seen it addressed. Either a radar is vulnerable to chaff, but immune to notching. Or it's vulnerable to notching, but immune to chaff. It shouldn't be both ways, but that's the way the 54s are in the sim.

This is a DCS-wide missile issue with chaff/notching mechanics that ED has confirmed they're working on.

Two Weeks™