not planned Easy mode AAR

[Jackjack171]

Just now, Tippis said:

Can't really have one without the other.

There's a reason why training wheels exist and why they're called that, after all…

 

I mean, yeah if you are 3-5 years old and can't hold yourself up on your bike! But this ain't that bro.

[Wrcknbckr]

13 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Can't really have one without the other.

There's a reason why training wheels exist and why they're called that, after all…

 

 

Training wheels prevent you from finding your balance.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Wrcknbckr

[Exorcet]

 

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The “problem” is that people won’t practice it and then expect the game to fly the plane for them.

This isn't incorrect though. No one is expecting anything. People are making a request. There is no problem with their request either, the request is being made to improve the sim. Nothing in DCS hinges on making people AAR without assistance. Not a single thing in the entire simulation. Nothing that is being requested makes DCS less realistic in any way shape or form. It is honestly very difficult to see how anyone could have a problem with the request. It's as if people were vocal about what someone does alone in the privacy of their own home. It's not bothering anyone, why should anyone else care?

 

This also isn't a divide between people who can refuel and who can't. Not everyone learns the same way and not everyone treats an assist like a crutch. Maybe that applies to the people who have made those arguments, but it doesn't necessarily apply to everyone, so those arguments aren't reasons to exclude the assist. In addition, easy ARR is still valuable even if you're mastered AA refueling. For a mission maker it would be useful to enable during mission testing because it could reduce how long it would take to go through a mission. Take the F-18 mission I posted before. When I originally made it, I only had the one S-3 tanker in the mission because I underestimated the mission fuel requirement. In order to discover this problem I had to fly the mission. Since I was only testing the mission you can bet I used things like time acceleration. Without fast forward the mission it about 3 hours long. Now unfortunately there is no AAR assist so I had to refuel manually, but depending on how ARR assist was implemented I could have saved myself a few extra minutes. I'd certainly appreciate that in mission testing.

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I couldn’t tell how many hours. I can just tell if you’ve got it or not. If you’ve got it you’ll know the game couldn’t teach you how. It took me maybe two weeks to get it on my first aircraft, the A-10C but it gets easier since the skill transfers to other planes. The Hornet took me about three or four attempts. 

DCS couldn’t teach you how to do this anymore than a racing sim could teach you how to enter a corner. You can watch all the instruction on it an apply it but it’s just something you need to practice yourself. The game can’t literally hold your hand. 

As it turns out racing games teaching you how to corner is nothing new. Gran Turismo has included this as part of the game since about 1996. I also have a feeling that air forces around the world don't just throw you in a plane and tell you how to figure it out.

 

In any case DCS should absolutely be about realism, but this isn't one of those cases where realism is under threat (is it anywhere?). You get realism by disabling the assists, not by keeping them out of the sim entirely.

[shagrat]

4 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

 

Training wheels prevent you from finding your balance.

 

That's bs... Sounds like a "wise man said", but is not reflecting real life in the slightest way.

 If you mount training wheels correct they prevent you from falling when slowing down and losing balance, when you start the learning process. This is true for a bicycle as well as for DCS.

That's why there are so many "helpers" in the sim already, to hold your hand when learning, one step at a time.

When you progress you adjust them , until you can remove them. When you can stop and dismount, without the training wheels touching the ground, you don't need them anymore.

 

[Northstar98]

4 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

Ah, yes you are totally correct. It was in just a normal mission folder.

Here is from a Training menu:

 

 

All the other three short versions skips the introduction and covers only AAR part.

Don't know what they really do, but as far I know, the "Silver Dragon" is responsible for these and should be OK. 

 

I imagine its a simple mission where you practice and the F/A-18C might have some extra stuff for qualifications (haven't tested, I'll give it a go (and fail) in the morning).

 

But regardless I think dedicated training missions, walking you through it are part of the solution, alongside the OP's wishes. This could be extended to airmanship in general.

[Fri13]

2 minutes ago, shagrat said:

That's bs... Sounds like a "wise man said", but is not reflecting real life in the slightest way.

 If you mount training wheels correct they prevent you from falling when slowing down and losing balance, when you start the learning process. This is true for a bicycle as well as for DCS.

 

Well, you are partially right. Many parents install training wheels wrong, where they are level with the rear wheel and so on denies to find the balance as they are literally making bicycle as a tricycle. But, there is as well reason why a "balance bike" is better, as there is no difficult parts at all in your bike to focus as the pedals, chains and all that is removed. You only have a handlebar and two wheels, and you kick yourself around. Then you can switch to bike with pedals, where now you need to learn the pedaling. 

There are two schools about this, and it is just question which one to go. 

 

 

[draconus]

4 hours ago, Fri13 said:

Don't know what they really do, but as far I know, the "Silver Dragon" is responsible for these and should be OK. 

 

 

It's Baltic Dragon.

 

5 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

As for other AAR capable aircraft:

• The F-14A/B doesn't

F-14 has practice missions for all type of tankers and on all maps.

[shagrat]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not a “problem” that the sim is difficult. That’s the whole point of a realistic sim title. The “problem” is that people won’t practice it and then expect the game to fly the plane for them. 
 

If and when you guys finally learn to do this you’ll see how silly this argument is. I can tell by the discussion most people haven’t even tried or think it’s impossible. It only seems impossible until you get it. Spend as much time on this as you spend making stuff go boom and you’ll get it in no time. 

First the "Problem" is, I want to decide on what I want to "waste" my precious playtime. That is my prerogative as a grown up.

Second it is, as said before "far more difficult as in real life" (missing peripheral vision, no feeling of acceleration/declaration etc.)

Third DCS already provides a lot of these "training aids" e.g. padlock view (for people without Head tracking/VR), rudder assist and auto rudder to ease the learning curve for war birds or help if you have no rudder pedals, easy comms, external views, target view...

 

But the most impressive argument is definitely the fact that now three campaigns needed to create a scripting/skip-reload Mission workaround for AAR to sell their work to a larger audience, as they realized, the customers may not find it entertaining to "learn to refuel for 2-3 months" to play a campaign they paid for. 

 

What I simply cannot understand is why some people want to deny the rest a solution to their problem? Is it because they dread to lose their feel of achievement, because others could refuel without going through a months long learning process? Would they feel emasculated?

I can't think of anything that would affect their own experience, when someone else could refuel a bit easier...

 

 

[Northstar98]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Ok you mean “training” mission. I mean “practice” mission. Honestly what people need is practice. The “training” aspect of it, which buttons to press or whatever is pretty minor. There’s no training mission necessary or even practical for that.

 

Dude, that's the easiest part of it - pressing a single button or flicking a single switch clearly isn't the issue here. What I'm talking about is a full walkthrough in terms of the actual airmanship involved - preferably with some kind of feedback.

 

A YouTube video can't provide feedback like a training mission can, and a dedicated training mission that provides feedback on how you're doing and attempts to coach you would be the ideal place for practice.

 

Quote

There are YouTube videos galore on what you’re supposed to do. It’s the doing it yourself part that’s challenging.

 

Which is why a training mission that does a similar thing is more useful as the player is actually doing it instead of just watching someone else do it.

 

Quote

And the only thing you can or should do it put a lot of practice time into it. 

The game can’t teach you how to do this. You need to just practice. 

 

How are you supposed to practice something you aren't taught or coached on in the first place? And no, it can teach you how to do it - something similar to what Desert Fox proposed here (which I think would be very useful for training).

 

However, I don't see an issue with defining a moving zone and having a fuel transfer be a triggerable action - we're half-way there already.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Northstar98

[Fri13]

Just now, Northstar98 said:

I imagine its a simple mission where you practice and the F/A-18C might have some extra stuff for qualifications (haven't tested, I'll give it a go (and fail) in the morning).

But regardless I think dedicated training missions, walking you through it are part of the solution, alongside the OP's wishes. This could be extended to airmanship in general.

 

I like to take it a try as well later as I have neither tested it on Harrier.

We have in a car simulators all kind assisting features to drive so it is even so simple as just pressing pedal down or releasing it. We have all the audible and visual indicators for the driving lines and how to use speed, we have ghosts and auto drives and everything to get a kid driving to assist a keyboard driver etc. And of course we can disable all for maximum challenge for those who so want etc. Difference just seems to be that in car racing games there are more people willing to admit that they do enable (and disable) various assisting features depending the race conditions or car etc and they don't feel shamed about it.

[shagrat]

12 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

Well, you are partially right. Many parents install training wheels wrong, where they are level with the rear wheel and so on denies to find the balance as they are literally making bicycle as a tricycle. But, there is as well reason why a "balance bike" is better, as there is no difficult parts at all in your bike to focus as the pedals, chains and all that is removed. You only have a handlebar and two wheels, and you kick yourself around. Then you can switch to bike with pedals, where now you need to learn the pedaling. 

There are two schools about this, and it is just question which one to go. 

 

 

Absolutely, but a balance bike is a tool to help learning to ride a bike and find your balance, as well.

 

[Fri13]

Just now, shagrat said:

Absolutely, but a balance bike is a tool to help learning to ride a bike and find your balance, as well.

 

 

Absolutely. Now we adults have a big electric bikes so we only need to balance things (slightly) and no cycling required...

Hey, F-35 lands by itself automatically.... It is amazing experience and feature. And real tankers has the assisting lights to help pilots in refueling... 

[Jackjack171]

Just now, shagrat said:

Absolutely, but a balance bike is a tool to help learning to ride a bike and find your balance, as well.

 

Only when you are physically or mentally inept bro. 

[SharpeXB]

32 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Nothing in DCS hinges on making people AAR without assistance.

Nothing in DCS requires you to learn AAR. It’s rather an advanced skill an not something normal or casual players are required to do. 
The OPs situation with this group having members who haven’t learned to do this is easy enough to remedy. How about teaching them how instead of making them participate in missions that they aren’t ready for. Or, slow down and go at a pace that they can follow. Like any group sport or activity. There are plenty of solutions besides an Easy Button in the sim. 

[shagrat]

2 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

Only when you are physically or mentally inept bro. 

Or old and deteriorating...

[Jackjack171]

Just now, Fri13 said:

 

Absolutely. Now we adults have a big electric bikes so we only need to balance things (slightly) and no cycling required...

Hey, F-35 lands by itself automatically.... It is amazing experience and feature. And real tankers has the assisting lights to help pilots in refueling... 

That's it bro, stationary bikes for everyone! JK, but really, I needed a spot to get to 325 on the chest press. My trainer got me there by barely touching the bar. His words of encouragement and my will got me there. Never quit! I think better training aids are better than just an out!

[shagrat]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Nothing in DCS requires you to learn AAR. It’s rather an advanced skill an not something normal or casual players are required to do. 
The OPs situation with this group having members who haven’t learned to do this is easy enough to remedy. How about teaching them how instead of making them participate in missions that they aren’t ready for. Or, slow down and go at a pace that they can follow. Like any group sport or activity. There are plenty of solutions besides an Easy Button in the sim. 

That's not correct. As I just said there is a reason Campaign creators invent crazy workarounds for AAR to make their campaigns accessible for everyone, even those who haven't mastered AAR.

[Jackjack171]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Nothing in DCS requires you to learn AAR. It’s rather an advanced skill an not something normal or casual players are required to do. 
The OPs situation with this group having members who haven’t learned to do this is easy enough to remedy. How about teaching them how instead of making them participate in missions that they aren’t ready for. Or, slow down and go at a pace that they can follow. Like any group sport or activity. There are plenty of solutions besides an Easy Button in the sim. 

I swear you are in my head bro!

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, shagrat said:

But the most impressive argument is definitely the fact that now three campaigns needed to create a scripting/skip-reload Mission workaround for AAR to sell their work to a larger audience, as they realized, the customers may not find it entertaining to "learn to refuel for 2-3 months" to play a campaign they paid for. 

So that perfectly fine for them to figure out a solution for this. Now ED doesn’t have to spend time on it. The logical objection to any of these wishlist items is that the Dev’s time could be better spent on more important things. So if campaign developers already have a solution for differing skill levels in the game why should ED need to do anything?

[Jackjack171]

Just now, shagrat said:

That's not correct. As I just said there is a reason Campaign creators invent crazy workarounds for AAR to make their campaigns accessible for everyone, even those who haven't mastered AAR.

The original OP called for this. I think this smells like laziness. One thing that I've noticed about these "groups" is that they are really good at learning radar operation, missile parameters and such but suck at basic airmanship. Some of these YouTube vids are horrible to watch. This is why it is difficult to take these request seriously. Selective frustration and an unwillingness to learn! IJS

[shagrat]

2 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

That's it bro, stationary bikes for everyone! JK, but really, I needed a spot to get to 325 on the chest press. My trainer got me there by barely touching the bar. His words of encouragement and my will got me there. Never quit! I think better training aids are better than just an out!

There are more solutions than just an "out". I mentioned before a simple "magnetic tether" and an adjustable "contact box" from 0.5m to a large 5*5m box via a slider could help a lot. The "Autorefuel" cheat is more like the auto startup. Nice, when you know how to do it, but don't have the nerve after the 3rd or 4th DCS crash in MP.

[Jackjack171]

Just now, shagrat said:

There are more solutions than just an "out". I mentioned before a simple "magnetic tether" and an adjustable "contact box" from 0.5m to a large 5*5m box via a slider could help a lot. The "Autorefuel" cheat is more like the auto startup. Nice, when you know how to do it, but don't have the nerve after the 3rd or 4th DCS crash in MP.

I'll buy that for a dollar! A Contact box would be a training aid brother. You got my ear!

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, shagrat said:

That's not correct. As I just said there is a reason Campaign creators invent crazy workarounds for AAR to make their campaigns accessible for everyone, even those who haven't mastered AAR.

You mean people who aren’t willing to put in the time to learn it. That’s their choice. But it’s fine and necessary that campaigns are accommodating of different skill levels. That still doesn’t mandate that ED work on anything. 

[shagrat]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So that perfectly fine for them to figure out a solution for this. Now ED doesn’t have to spend time on it. The logical objection to any of these wishlist items is that the Dev’s time could be better spent on more important things. So if campaign developers already have a solution for differing skill levels in the game why should ED need to do anything?

Because the solution is a "creative workaround" to keep it polite.

And the campaigns are a cash cow, as the large majority is actually flying single player... Anyway we will see, ED is aware of the "problem" and I am sure if they go for it, they will do it right, as an option, so everyone can play DCS the way he prefers, in line with their philosophy.

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Which is why a training mission that does a similar thing is more useful as the player is actually doing it instead of just watching someone else do it.

Another flight sim has a plug-in that’s an AI flight instructor that grades your performance, reminds you about checklist items and cracks jokes. It’s cool but that sort of thing is way too complex to ask ED to do. Again there are tons of videos on how to do this. Just watch and practice.