Is the F-16C the worst dogfighter of its era in DCS right now?

[BIGNEWY]

 

Hi, Sustained turn rates are quite accurate as can be seen in the FM report we provided earlier, instantaneous turn rate is still be adjusted, but mostly accurate, again all in tuning. 

We have a flight model review in progress at the moment. 

 

thank you

[oldtimesake]

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

Hi, Sustained turn rates are quite accurate as can be seen in the FM report we provided earlier, instantaneous turn rate is still be adjusted, but mostly accurate, again all in tuning. 

We have a flight model review in progress at the moment. 

 

thank you

 

Nope. Only the peak sustained turn rate is accurate. Sustained turn rate below mach 0.5 is 1deg/sec lower than manual:

 

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

Hi, Sustained turn rates are quite accurate as can be seen in the FM report we provided earlier, instantaneous turn rate is still be adjusted, but mostly accurate, again all in tuning. 

We have a flight model review in progress at the moment. 

 

thank you

 

One more thing: I think you have a wrong idea about instantaneous turn rate. 

Even you can get the instantaneous turn rate correct in the future, the energy bleed rate is still incorrect, as tested in this thread:

At 22000lbs, 191.4m/s and 7.7G pull the tested ps loss is greater than 391feet/sec, while on the manual it is less than 200feet/sec

At 22000lbs, Mach 0.42 you are supposed to sustain 19.5deg/sec but the tested number is only 18.5deg/sec

Edited April 16, 2021 by oldtimesake

[Mars Exulte]

On 4/12/2021 at 3:22 PM, Youda said:

I would really love to fly the F-16 in BFM, but i just can't find a reason to, because there seem to be better alternatives for just about every possible tactic.

  This isn't a MMORPG where you compare DPS and tanking stats. Those numbers are relevant reference points, but it does not realistically matter if A is slightly more at a given statistic than B. It literally doesn't work that way unless both pilots are very incompetent.

 

On 4/12/2021 at 3:22 PM, Youda said:

The only advantage to the other aircrafts is that it can accelerate faster in a straight line, but that's not really useful in a dogfight.

  Yes, actually, having higher T/W and acceleration is extremely useful in a fight. There is more to fighting than pulling on the stick as hard as you can or trying to ride a certain ''best number''.

 

On 4/12/2021 at 3:22 PM, Youda said:

I won't go into arguing whether this is realistic or not, because i don't have enough info.

  None of them are 100% realistic because this is a rough digital approximation of reality. That said, it's also irrelevant if it's 100% as long as it's relatively close.

 

On 4/12/2021 at 3:22 PM, Youda said:

It just feels little disappointing that the F-16 with such a strong public reputation as an excellent dogfighter is actually rather poor here in DCS.

  To repeat an earlier comment, there is more to air combat than 'stats'. It is not a spreadsheet. In the real world, pilots do not sit down and compare spreadsheets then shrug and say ''what's the point, he's 0.5 degrees a sec faster sustained turn than me *cry*''

 

  It really amazes (and annoys, obviously, but that surprises absolutely no one around here) me the ''stat chasing'' mentality some people around here have. To put it very, very simply, the more a person obsesses over spreadsheets and numbers, the less likely they have any idea what the hell they're talking about.

[bkthunder]

Among other things, G-onset rate is also too slow, max negative g is 1.5g less than it should be, and the FCS "stops" pulling at about 8.5g, it seems quite random when you can reach 9 or not (either way max g should be 9.3)

[BIGNEWY]

I would suggest you all wait until the flight model review is finished. 

 

then retest,

 

we will need track replays and evidence to backup the claims. 

 

thanks

[Youda]

19 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

  This isn't a MMORPG where you compare DPS and tanking stats. Those numbers are relevant reference points, but it does not realistically matter if A is slightly more at a given statistic than B. It literally doesn't work that way unless both pilots are very incompetent.

 

  To repeat an earlier comment, there is more to air combat than 'stats'. It is not a spreadsheet. In the real world, pilots do not sit down and compare spreadsheets then shrug and say ''what's the point, he's 0.5 degrees a sec faster sustained turn than me *cry*''

 

  It really amazes (and annoys, obviously, but that surprises absolutely no one around here) me the ''stat chasing'' mentality some people around here have. To put it very, very simply, the more a person obsesses over spreadsheets and numbers, the less likely they have any idea what the hell they're talking about.

Oh, how kind from you.

You can hate me, you can call me armchair wannabe warrior, but i like the e-sport aspect of the game. I like BFM duels, competitions and tournaments. It's my way of enjoying this product. That's why differences in stats, even little ones, do matter to me, because they determine the tactics you're gonna play against your opponent.

You should learn some respect of people with different views than yours. Not everyone plays DCS to study flight procedures and prepare for flying in a real life.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Youda

[macedk]

No matter what we got, the pilot is key

[Mars Exulte]

5 hours ago, Youda said:

Oh, how kind from you.

You can hate me, you can call me armchair wannabe warrior,

  I didn't say anything of the sort.

 

Quote

but i like the e-sport aspect of the game. I like BFM duels, competitions and tournaments.

  Me too, as soon as I can play again, I intend to compete in as many of them as I can. I also intend to use whatever aircraft people consider ''worst'' at the time. Tears of rage taste especially sweet when the victim doesn't at all see it coming

 

Quote

It's my way of enjoying this product.

  Nothing wrong with that.

 

Quote

That's why differences in stats, even little ones, do matter to me, because they determine the tactics you're gonna play against your opponent.

  To a certain extent, yes. And yes, it is useful to know. But when a person compares spread sheets and concludes ''how can I possibly win'' they are doing it wrong. Full stop. If the differences are extreme, say an F-5 vs a JF-17 (looks meaningfully at another thread) yes, you can abstractly determine a conclusion. But if they are NOT starkly separated, then they become far less significant. You aren't going to win off a degree or two a second, or a few hundred pounds of thrust, or a g or two. That is not how it works. The pilots are not 100% equally skilled, they are not going to perform a set series of maneuvers. It will not come down to ''math'' and ''spreadsheets''. Period. That is not how it works. A person that thinks it does, does not understand the subject all that well. These are influences on the final result, but not determinants.

 

Quote

You should learn some respect of people with different views than yours.

  I am perfectly fine with others views, on matters that are subject to debate and open to interpretation. That does not mean that all views are equally valid, or that all subjects are open to debate, or that a person may be wrong. In this particular situation, people trying to ''min max'' fighter jets like it's a stat based MMORPG are very definitely doing it wrong and do not understand the topic.

 

Quote

Not everyone plays DCS to study flight procedures and prepare for flying in a real life.

  Nor do I. Nothing I said has anything to do this comment. What I said is fact : air combat is not about the stats except in specific (BVR, perhaps) or extreme scenarios of disparate capabilities. A few percent plus or minus will absolutely not flip the fight one or the other way all by itself.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Mars Exulte

[Youda]

4 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

To a certain extent, yes. And yes, it is useful to know. But when a person compares spread sheets and concludes ''how can I possibly win'' they are doing it wrong. Full stop. If the differences are extreme, say an F-5 vs a JF-17 (looks meaningfully at another thread) yes, you can abstractly determine a conclusion. But if they are NOT starkly separated, then they become far less significant. You aren't going to win off a degree or two a second, or a few hundred pounds of thrust, or a g or two. That is not how it works. The pilots are not 100% equally skilled, they are not going to perform a set series of maneuvers. It will not come down to ''math'' and ''spreadsheets''. Period. That is not how it works. A person that thinks it does, does not understand the subject all that well. These are influences on the final result, but not determinants.

Sorry, but i kinda disgree here.

 

Of course better stats are not autowin, that's absolutely true, that's what i love about it. And in low level competition the skill is the dominant factor. But at the high level, where both pilots know very well what they are doing, small differences start to be important. I just can't imagine anyone taking a Viper and making it to the finals and winning it, for that he would need a lot of luck.

 

My room-mate plays LoL and this phenomenon is very visible there too. At low level you can see pretty much all the champions being used and there aren't any differences in their win ratio. But at the top level there are only selected 10-20 that everyone uses, because anything else is not up to the task.

And it's the same in DCS. Why do you think the finals of Folds of Honor 2020 was dominated by Hornets and there was only one Viper? It's not a coincidence.

2019 was all about Tomcats, because people learned they can abuse Gs and flaps without any consequences, which wasn't allowed now.

 

Now, i'm absolutely not saying that we should change aircrafts' flight characteristics to balance them against each other, this is a simulator so realism is the number one priority. But given the number of independent pilot reports that say Viper was known to out-rate things, i have slight doubts about the correctness of the flight model of either the F-16 or some of the other aircrafts.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Youda

[TobiasA]

There isn't that much that you can clearly always outrate in an F-16, it has only a slight edge over other fighters. 

Like it is very close with the MiG 29, Flanker, F-14, 15, 18. All those are near 20 degrees per second sustained turn rate. 

Just saying, some of you will probably be disappointed with how much will change after the FM rework. 

[Mars Exulte]

11 hours ago, Youda said:

 

And it's the same in DCS. Why do you think the finals of Folds of Honor 2020 was dominated by Hornets and there was only one Viper? It's not a coincidence.

  You're correct, the Hornet is most popular. It favors low speed turn fighting which the majority of people also favor turn fighting. Its FCS also does a lot to prevent loss of control or over G, making it to a large degree idiot proof. Anybody can fly a Hornet and be a credible threat provided the opponent engages in a low speed turning fight. Energy fights are a lot harder to conduct properly, and you rarely see it done. It's the same in every flight sim, turn fighters are favored because they're easiest, not because they're best.

 

  I watched the FoH fight too, a couple of them were pretty good, most of them were not. That a plane catering to the lowest common denominator was popular is hardly surprising. The F-18 is a competent fighter, a jack of all trades, but I would rather have literally any other high T/W aircraft. Give me a F-15, F-16, or MiG-29 anyday. If he lets me get above him and build an energy advantage he'll be screwed.

 

11 hours ago, Youda said:

2019 was all about Tomcats, because people learned they can abuse Gs and flaps without any consequences, which wasn't allowed now.

  Yes, gamers love using exploits to win, and the ''destroy my plane to get the kill'' mentality is nothing new. You should never get slow enough for it to be a viable option for him, and if he jams his flaps trying it (which most will, because gamers are chickenshit and go for cheap kills) you should be actively anticipating, extend, climb, then kill him at leisure. He surrenders all initiative the instant he does it, if he fails to kill you within 2-3 seconds, which he shouldn't because you're supposed to be anticipating that bs move, he's screwed.

 

  WWII or jets, the rules are the same. I've already been there, done that a million times. The #1 rule is ''don't fight your opponents fight''. If you have substantially higher T/W, or even just a higher energy reserve, you have the option of ''saying no'' to whatever your opponent is wanting to do. Regarding something like a Hornet, a few deg a sec, or a g or two, literally shouldn't matter, because you shouldn't be fighting his fight in the first place. As long as you're close to his level of maneuverability, you should be able to threaten him. You just have to exercise restraint, get and keep your energy, don't cash it out until you're ready to make the kill.

 

  It's not that I'm some super splendiferous super internet warrior, but I've done this stuff enough to know how simplistic most people are in their approach to fighting, and I've become very good at maintaining the energy advantage. Used to, I was usually better at flying the knife edge of the envelope than most people and could force them to stall or dip a wing, but modern FCS largely nullify that option, and modern fighters are quite at home with high alpha, post stall maneuvering. Regardless, managing your energy state is very basic stuff. Hornets are not the end all be all, except to people who only know ''I pull hard on stik, mak playn go brrrrt''

[Youda]

1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

Give me a F-15, F-16, or MiG-29 anyday. If he lets me get above him and build an energy advantage he'll be screwed.

 

WWII or jets, the rules are the same. I've already been there, done that a million times. The #1 rule is ''don't fight your opponents fight''. If you have substantially higher T/W, or even just a higher energy reserve, you have the option of ''saying no'' to whatever your opponent is wanting to do. Regarding something like a Hornet, a few deg a sec, or a g or two, literally shouldn't matter, because you shouldn't be fighting his fight in the first place. As long as you're close to his level of maneuverability, you should be able to threaten him. You just have to exercise restraint, get and keep your energy, don't cash it out until you're ready to make the kill.

Would you mind showing me in a duel some day?

What you write is easy to say but much harder to do when using jets with TWRs so high that they can climb vertically and with precise radar gunsights with which they can easily snipe you from 1 km below.

Also, if you add any kind of Fox-2s, even the early rear-aspect ones, this automatically goes out of the window.

[feipan]

Exactly. Go up to blow up.

 

When two pilots with equal skill match against each other in DACT, the hornet will win. This is not about pilot skill, but the box the pilot sits in.

And the flight performance for the viper is definitely not accurate.

 

Basically saying "Learn to fly I the viper" is not helpful at all and completely misses the point of the real issue.

[TobiasA]

A fight with heaters usually does not come to a merge, and in a pure gun fight you can go up... 

As soon as you set rules in a sport, it will benefit one and be bad for others. A turn fight with heaters doesn't suit the Viper because it is best if it has room and energy. It will never excel in a slow and tight fight on high AOAs. Not against the hornet. 

On the usual discord channels, people complain about the Viper being too strong in BVR. Just because I can go mach 1.4 with bags which is the rated limit of those. It absolutely dominates the hornet in that field. 

You either play e-sports or adopt to your environment. That are two completely different things.

[Torri]

1 hour ago, TobiasA said:

A turn fight with heaters doesn't suit the Viper because it is best if it has room and energy.

A 2-circle fight with heaters absolutely can suit the Viper.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Torri98

[Mars Exulte]

 

17 hours ago, Youda said:

What you write is easy to say but much harder to do when using jets with TWRs so high that they can climb vertically and with precise radar gunsights with which they can easily snipe you from 1 km below.

  Yeah, of course. I'm not meaning to say it's all that easy, because it's not, my stance is merely that turning alone will not automatically win the fight and that worked right, a higher T/W is equally as useful. If dissimilar aircraft were incapable of defeating each other, there wouldn't be as much variety in the world. As lomg as the opponents are approximately comparable, a few % plus or minus is extremely unlikely to be the deciding factor.

 

17 hours ago, Youda said:

Also, if you add any kind of Fox-2s, even the early rear-aspect ones, this automatically goes out of the window.

  Yeah, of course, add in missiles and none of this matters hardly. The tournaments and duels are almost always 1v1 guns only stuff, though, which is what I thought we were mainly discussing.

 

  As for dueling, I'd love to once I'm able to set my rig back up. Tldr, everything is in storage and I literally live on the job these days. Hopefully this summer that all changes. I want to get in on the tournament scene 100%.

[TobiasA]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb Torri98:

A 2-circle fight with heaters absolutely can suit the Viper.

 

Wenn HMCS comes into play, the fight goes to the one with the higher off-boresight and higher instantaneous turn rate. And Flanker, Fulcrum and also the hornet can pull more AOA and have a high off-boresight capability so it is likely to catch a heater through the circle especially if you go wide to retain energy. 

Fights against those enemies get usually tight. 

[Mars Exulte]

6 hours ago, feipan said:

When two pilots with equal skill match against each other in DACT, the hornet will win. This is not about pilot skill, but the box the pilot sits in.

  I disagree. The box the pilot sits in is an influence, but no the Hornet is not the ''I win'' button you guys seem to think it is. Against noobs that don't know how to fight it, sure, but the more experienced the pilots get, the less that's going to happen.

 

6 hours ago, feipan said:

And the flight performance for the viper is definitely not accurate.

  Entirely possible, but again, as long as the disparity between two planes is not ''insurmountably huge'' it's not THAT significant of an influence. People aren't losing fights over a degree or two a second.

 

6 hours ago, feipan said:

Basically saying "Learn to fly I the viper" is not helpful at all and completely misses the point of the real issue.

  Not even talking about the Viper specifically, but literally ''turn fight vs energy fight''. It doesn't matter what the planes are. You shouldn't be fighting your opponents greatest strength with your greatest weakness.

[Icebeat]

yeah, definitely, this is why it is the most exported plane ever. 

[unlikely_spider]

2 minutes ago, Icebeat said:

yeah, definitely, this is why it is the most exported plane ever. 

To be fair, dogfighting is a thing of the past. It's not the primary reason why countries purchase planes.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all

 

please remember to keep the discussion about DCS, and not other sims. 

 

thank you

[Top Jockey]

2 hours ago, TobiasA said:

Wenn HMCS comes into play, the fight goes to the one with the higher off-boresight and higher instantaneous turn rate. And Flanker, Fulcrum and also the hornet can pull more AOA and have a high off-boresight capability so it is likely to catch a heater through the circle especially if you go wide to retain energy. 

Fights against those enemies get usually tight. 

 

I believe that when the HMCS comes into play, those differences between any airframe tend to get somewhat "negligible" (specifically the ITR)... and Situational Awareness (first look, first shoot) is paramount.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Top Jockey

[104th_Crunch]

On 4/17/2021 at 10:06 AM, BIGNEWY said:

I would suggest you all wait until the flight model review is finished. 

 

then retest,

 

we will need track replays and evidence to backup the claims. 

 

thanks

Thanks for the news! Look forward to the updates and any updates you may have on the updates!

Edited April 19, 2021 by 104th_Crunch

[TobiasA]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Top Jockey:

 

I believe that when the HMCS comes into play, those differences between any airframe tend to get somewhat "negligible"... and Situational Awareness (first look, first shoot) is paramount.

 

Exactly. I had very few cases actually entering a merge in such a scenario. Almost all of them when getting jumped due to bad SA. It usually does not happen, and if it does, the fight is over in seconds.
Even then, airframe differences don't have such a big effect since usually the fight entry conditions are pretty much uneven. Outside of e-sports of course. It's a matter of sensors, situational awareness and the ability to deploy weapons that decides it.
It one of the sides has HMCS and the other doesn't, that is usually what decides that fight and the side not having HMCS will always try to stay below Rmin of the heaters, thus chosing the one circle fight above the risky two circle.

Edited April 19, 2021 by TobiasA

[feipan]

6 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

  I disagree. The box the pilot sits in is an influence, but no the Hornet is not the ''I win'' button you guys seem to think it is. Against noobs that don't know how to fight it, sure, but the more experienced the pilots get, the less that's going to happen.

 

  Entirely possible, but again, as long as the disparity between two planes is not ''insurmountably huge'' it's not THAT significant of an influence. People aren't losing fights over a degree or two a second.

 

  Not even talking about the Viper specifically, but literally ''turn fight vs energy fight''. It doesn't matter what the planes are. You shouldn't be fighting your opponents greatest strength with your greatest weakness.

explain to me why I could easily defeat another hornet player in a BFM situation consistently for 3 rounds? I flew 1 circle, two circle and the vertical each per round. That being in the hornet. 
 

In the viper it is far more difficult. I just could kill him in a snapshot head on after we ended up merging a few times and me changing tactics to a one circle. 
 

what you talk about pilot skill is common sense and knowledge, and talk is cheap.

you sound like somebody who knows the theoretical stuff, but never had any practice. 

One or two degree definitely make a difference. Not to mention energy retention and g onset rate. 
 

you miss the problem here completely, in that the viper is not up to par per DCS implementation. It’s not about general airmanship. 
 

I could be wrong you really are that good in the viper. I’d like to fight you, me being in a hornet. In that case I’d like you to teach me.