PSA: F-14 Performance/FM Development Status + Guided Discussion

[maxsin72]

1 minute ago, Spurts said:

And your statement proves my point.  I have dominated F/A-18s in the F-14 because it can generate much more lift for tighter turn radii, you just have to practice to be able to still control it.  You have to practice AoA control, using rudders, knowing when to use cross control lateral stick inputs, knowing when you can and cannot put the big flaps down.  In the Hornet the FBW nannies do all the work for you but also limit your capability.  The F-14 is more capable, but it is not easy to get and use that capability.  The Hornet is a very dangerous opponent and is very easy to use which means even those with lower skills/experience can do great, but the F-14 can do more in the hands of someone who knows how to wring everything out of it.  In the hands of a novice, or someone who tries to fly it like it's an F/A-18, the F-14 is more dangerous to the pilot than the opponent.

I have about 3k hours of BFM in VR with F14 and i think you have to prove your point on the play ground: are you available to do some test? I'm curious to understand what you mean usings both F14 and F18. So please tell me a multiplayer server on which we could perform some good fights, thank you

[maxsin72]

35 minutes ago, Karon said:

Replacing an expert with a new person does not mean that the changes are implemented any sooner, quite the opposite.

Obviously, as everybody, i prefer fat creason but as i told, if he has no time and we have to wait for years, i think someone else would have to do the job.

[Spurts]

I don't play on public servers, only private ones, and these days I only get to fly once a month.  You might want to re-think your hours too.  3k would be over an hour and a half a day, every day, without fail, for five years, of VR F-14 BFM only.  If that was true then you would already understand what I was saying.

When the DCS community said the MiG-29 AI was an unbeatable UFO, I beat it.  When the community said the MiG-15 AI was an unbeatable UFO, I beat it.  I beat 4 Ace AI (2xMiG-29s 2xSu-27) in BFM using the F-14A.  My buddy is a Hornet main, it's all he flies.  He beats my Viper flying regularly and I've been flying virtual Vipers since '98.  He has never beaten my Tomcat.  There are plenty of pilots on these forums who have similar experiences to mine.

[LanceCriminal86]

11 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

Obviously, as everybody, i prefer fat creason but as i told, if he has no time and we have to wait for years, i think someone else would have to do the job.

So you're the development lead now?

[maxsin72]

31 minutes ago, Spurts said:

I don't play on public servers, only private ones, and these days I only get to fly once a month.  You might want to re-think your hours too.  3k would be over an hour and a half a day, every day, without fail, for five years, of VR F-14 BFM only.  If that was true then you would already understand what I was saying.

When the DCS community said the MiG-29 AI was an unbeatable UFO, I beat it.  When the community said the MiG-15 AI was an unbeatable UFO, I beat it.  I beat 4 Ace AI (2xMiG-29s 2xSu-27) in BFM using the F-14A.  My buddy is a Hornet main, it's all he flies.  He beats my Viper flying regularly and I've been flying virtual Vipers since '98.  He has never beaten my Tomcat.  There are plenty of pilots on these forums who have similar experiences to mine.

I don't have to re-think anything, i had also sessions of 7-8 hours in a day and, till few months ago, i was usually playing at least 3 hours a day every single day. If you don't play daily on public servers what you are saying means nothing, i've fought vs Brno, W-Ace, Plaiskool and many others skilled players and, if you take as an example AI, you totally don't know what are you talking about. So the only way to help you to understand what i mean, is to have you as a guest on my private server... if you would like to accept the challenge Thank you

21 minutes ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

So you're the development lead now?

Nope, but i think you are not able to read my friend, maybe a come back to school could be useful for you.

Edited November 2, 2022 by maxsin72

[LanceCriminal86]

52 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

I don't have to re-think anything, i had also sessions of 7-8 hours in a day and, till few months ago, i was usually playing at least 3 hours a day every single day. If you don't play daily on public servers what you are saying means nothing, i've fought vs Brno, W-Ace, Plaiskool and many others skilled players and, if you take as an example AI, you totally don't know what are you talking about. So the only way to help you to understand what i mean, is to have you as a guest on my private server... if you would like to accept the challenge Thank you

Nope, but i think you are not able to read my friend, maybe a come back to school could be useful for you.

 

No, I read very clearly where the representative of the development team explained what is going on and you continued to insist on directing their development resources from an internet forum.

[maxsin72]

1 minute ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

No, I read very clearly where the representative of the development team explained what is going on and you continued to insist on directing their development resources from an internet forum.

No, you are not able both to read and understand. I wrote that now are passed 2 years and the F14 is still underperforming and that i think it's time to fix it without waiting other years, go back to school, please.

[Lt_Jaeger]

2 years me and many other flying the Tomcat on- and offline and enjoying it. Make due with what you have. If you do only these, for me meaningless BFM thingy, fine -you might maybe be missing a degree or two, if you fly that thing in Missions taking like 2-3 hours, I never missed anything in the FM department.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Lt_Jaeger

[lunaticfringe]

4 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

When you fight in BFM also few degrees in a turn could make the difference between life or death

"Tell me you're a one-trick BFM pony without telling me you're a one-trick BFM pony" 

[LanceCriminal86]

10 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

No, you are not able both to read and understand. I wrote that now are passed 2 years and the F14 is still underperforming and that i think it's time to fix it without waiting other years, go back to school, please.

Getting a little personal aren't we?

And from the last rounds of these performance tweaks I recall that there were factors related to stores drag that are out of HB's direct hands, as the drag of the AIM-7 (and all other stores) is controlled by ED's values, which don't take into account drag differences between different pylons and airframes.

[maxsin72]

19 minutes ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

2 years me and many other flying the Tomcat on- and offline and enjoying it. Make due with what you have. If you do only these, for me meaningless BFM thingy, fine -you might maybe be missing a degree or two, if you fly that thing in Missions taking like 2-3 hours, I never missed anything in the FM department.

 

I have specified BFM, ok?

6 minutes ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

Getting a little personal aren't we?

And from the last rounds of these performance tweaks I recall that there were factors related to stores drag that are out of HB's direct hands, as the drag of the AIM-7 (and all other stores) is controlled by ED's values, which don't take into account drag differences between different pylons and airframes.

You are getting on personal, and only you because i have clearly specified that really much time has been passed since FM is underperforming and i didn't mention your name.

[maxsin72]

18 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

"Tell me you're a one-trick BFM pony without telling me you're a one-trick BFM pony" 

If you want, i can explain better myself on the play ground in a public or private server, so you will understand what i mean, are you available or you are only one who like to make sentences remaining hidden behind the keyboard?

Edited November 2, 2022 by maxsin72

[LanceCriminal86]

7 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

I have specified BFM, ok?

You are getting on personal, and only you because i have clearly specified that really much time has been passed since FM is underperforming and i didn't mention your name.

Keep telling me to "go back to school" and I'll keep reminding you to read the forum rules and responses from the devs while you attempt to "1v1 me bro" and make personal attacks.

[maxsin72]

2 minutes ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

Keep telling me to "go back to school" and I'll keep reminding you to read the forum rules and responses from the devs while you attempt to "1v1 me bro" and make personal attacks.

You started with personal attack, don't try to kid me, you wrote for first "So you're the development lead now? "

And now go back to school..

[DD_Fenrir]

Maxin, give it a rest chum, it's getting tiresome to read, is wholly unoriginal, not particularly mature and shows a lack of pragmatism.

You need to stop letting your impatience get the better of you and taking out your frustrations on the other board members.

You have an answer, it may not be the one you like, but there it is. Deal with it.

In the meantime, the DCS: F-14 is wholly enjoyable and an excellent product and capable of mixing it with any of the other aircraft in DCS, player or AI flown. 

 

2 minutes ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

It's not just a little off, it's quite a bit off especially in acceleration - something that sets the B apart from the A. Ever since the A came out the B became a slightly different A for some reason. Compring the B before the A release and now is night and day.

Evidence

[maxsin72]

10 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Maxin, give it a rest chum, it's getting tiresome to read, is wholly unoriginal, not particularly mature and shows a lack of pragmatism.

You need to stop letting your impatience get the better of you and taking out your frustrations on the other board members.

You have an answer, it may not be the one you like, but there it is. Deal with it.

In the meantime, the DCS: F-14 is wholly enjoyable and an excellent product and capable of mixing it with any of the other aircraft in DCS, player or AI flown. 

 

Evidence

I'm sorry that my posts make you annoyed but i feel the need to answer to everyone who is making free attacks on my person, so please forgive me or, if it is not possible, please ignore me.

Edited November 2, 2022 by maxsin72

[lunaticfringe]

1 hour ago, maxsin72 said:

If you want, i can explain better myself on the play ground in a public or private server, so you will understand what i mean, are you available or you are only one who like to make sentences remaining hidden behind the keyboard?

 

I understand what you mean perfectly; your inability to overcome fractions of a degree per second versus values found in hand drawn charts in the F-14's best maneuvering envelope using minor plane of maneuver adjustments and better decision making says enough.  The record shows all of this began round ~0.2 DpS at 5000' in the corner region; that hasn't changed appreciably whatsoever.  And unless there's a new form of online bloodsport where everybody is dogfighting above 25k' all day long, the transonic acceleration issue is a non-factor, where- as you say "(you've) specified BFM".

Which, begs the question: 3000 hours of BFM in and you haven't figured out how to make up less than one DpS?  What have you to teach me- how to maneuver permanently stuck in-plane on the horizontal and fail to make up ground?  Because that's literally where the only anti-F-14 BFM argument resides; and it's plenty closer to its actual numbers in that region than any other module.  There's no volume of blood to draw from the stone in the regime you want from it; everything else is technique.  Even the A will accelerate above corner while turning if you let it.   

Instead of talking about how everybody else needs to go back to school, or how you want to meet people after class to throw down and supposedly show them something, spend that free energy attacking your own Tacviews; that way, when creason has time to revisit the final bit of the FM adjustments, you might be ready to actually put it to use, rather than be stuck in the same mode.  An artist is both their own worst critic, and isn't prone to complaining about their brushes or canvas. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by lunaticfringe

[maxsin72]

8 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

I understand what you mean perfectly; your inability to overcome fractions of a degree per second versus values found in hand drawn charts in the F-14's best maneuvering envelope using minor plane of maneuver adjustments and better decision making says enough.  The record shows all of this began round ~0.2 DpS at 5000' in the corner region; that hasn't changed appreciably whatsoever.  And unless there's a new form of online bloodsport where everybody is dogfighting above 25k' all day long, the transonic acceleration issue is a non-factor, where- as you say "(you've) specified BFM".

Which, begs the question: 3000 hours of BFM in and you haven't figured out how to make up less than one DpS?  What have you to teach me- how to maneuver permanently stuck in-plane on the horizontal and fail to make up ground?  Because that's literally where the only anti-F-14 BFM argument resides; and it's plenty closer to its actual numbers in that region than any other module.  There's no volume of blood to draw from the stone in the regime you want from it; everything else is technique.  Even the A will accelerate above corner while turning if you let it.   

Instead of talking about how everybody else needs to go back to school, or how you want to meet people after class to throw down and supposedly show them something, spend that free energy attacking your own Tacviews; that way, when creason has time to revisit the final bit of the FM adjustments, you might be ready to actually put it to use, rather than be stuck in the same mode.  An artist is both their own worst critic, and isn't prone to complaining about their brushes or canvas. 

 

There is nothing better than seeing how it works on the play ground, words does not matter and tacview does not explain everything. So, if you are available, i would like to do some tests using both F18  and F14, to try to show you what i mean when i say that nobody is still using F 14 in Tournaments, apart me and one other pilot i met. So please stop losing time writing and use your time to do some tests with me. 

[Callsign JoNay]

3 hours ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

So you're the development lead now?

Imagine going to a barber shop and asking for a haircut. You pay in advance, sit in the chair, and your usual barber takes the haircut to 90% completion. Then he tells you that he has to leave because he got another job at a pub and his shift is about to start. He tells you to wait in the chair until he's finished his shift at the pub and then he'll come back to complete the haircut. Or actually, he's pretty swamped this week, so maybe he'll complete it next week. Or next month. He's not sure. Then when you politely ask the manager of the barber shop if maybe another barber could finish the cut, he sarcastically asks if you're the new owner of the shop now.

We're paying customers, and the comment you replied to was being very polite and reasonable.

[Lt_Jaeger]

I'm completely infuriated about the indexer lights going out if dimmed below a setting of 6. The Tomcat is total worthless now and nobody uses it any more in carrier ops. I wait already 2 years for a fixing. If you don't get it, I will take you on a server and show you that there are only Hornets around. 

Maybe I should demand money back or does early access mean that I have to suck it up and find a workaround?? 

 

[lunaticfringe]

34 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

There is nothing better than seeing how it works on the play ground, words does not matter and tacview does not explain everything.

So now the problem is ephemeral rather than empirical, and we're migrating from data points to feelings...? 

Say- didn't you already play this line of conversation out with an actual, exceptionally experienced F-14 pilot here, or am I confusing you with somebody else? 

 

34 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

So, if you are available, i would like to do some tests using both F18  and F14, to try to show you what i mean when i say that nobody is still using F 14 in Tournaments, apart me and one other pilot i met.

BFM tournament rosters show that just fine.  And it's not going to substantively change over a sub-fractional adjustment in turn rate or the transonic correction for anyone not putting in the pure work. 

 

34 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

So please stop losing time writing and use your time to do some tests with me. 

If you've got this nailed down to an exact factor, pull up some of your Tacviews- tournament or daily mix, and point to timestamps where you think you're legitimately getting beat under the E-M turn rate and acceleration charts against whatever opposition you want to share, and we'll look at what the jet is doing, and what you're doing with it. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

I'm completely infuriated about the indexer lights going out if dimmed below a setting of 6. The Tomcat is total worthless now and nobody uses it any more in carrier ops. I wait already 2 years for a fixing. If you don't get it, I will take you on a server and show you that there are only Hornets around. 

Maybe I should demand money back or does early access mean that I have to suck it up and find a workaround?? 

 

*looks at dimly-lit flown indicators on the shelf*

If you can figure out a work-around, would you be so kind as to hook a brother up? 

Edited November 2, 2022 by lunaticfringe

[Frosty2124]

26 minutes ago, Callsign JoNay said:

Imagine going to a barber shop and asking for a haircut. You pay in advance, sit in the chair, and your usual barber takes the haircut to 90% completion. Then he tells you that he has to leave because he got another job at a pub and his shift is about to start. He tells you to wait in the chair until he's finished his shift at the pub and then he'll come back to complete the haircut. Or actually, he's pretty swamped this week, so maybe he'll complete it next week. Or next month. He's not sure. Then when you politely ask the manager of the barber shop if maybe another barber could finish the cut, he sarcastically asks if you're the new owner of the shop now.

We're paying customers, and the comment you replied to was being very polite and reasonable.

yes, but you would take legal action and not go onto the barbers forums and complain, if you feel that you're being scammed, lawyer up and may the odds be ever in your favour, which they won't because the words "early access", "subject to change" and may not be representative of the final product" are pretty strong legally, but I suspect you won't have read the EULA either, have a great day !

 

[maxsin72]

22 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

So now the problem is ephemeral rather than empirical, and we're migrating from data points to feelings...? 

Nope, are you pretending not to understand? I would like to create the right situations fighting with you and then we will analyze tacview's files.

 

22 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

BFM tournament rosters show that just fine.  And it's not going to substantively change over a sub-fractional adjustment in turn rate or the transonic correction for anyone not putting in the pure work. 

 

22 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

If you've got this nailed down to an exact factor, pull up some of your Tacviews- tournament or daily mix, and point to timestamps where you think you're legitimately getting beat under the E-M turn rate and acceleration charts against whatever opposition you want to share, and we'll look at what the jet is doing, and what you're doing with it. 

Let's go on the play ground, i'm available today even now. With my BFM partners we spend much time to train and test, which is your problem? Stop the words and do the facts otherwise your words means nothing.

22 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

Say- didn't you already play this line of conversation out with an actual, exceptionally experienced F-14 pilot here, or am I confusing you with somebody else? 

I don't understand what you mean so please explain better yourself. I'm not joking.

Edited November 2, 2022 by maxsin72

[Frosty2124]

20 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

Nope, are you pretending not to understand? I would like to create the right situations fighting with you and then we will analyze tacview's files.

 

 

Let's go on the play ground, i'm available today even now. With my BFM partners we spend much time to train and test, which is your problem? Stop the words and do the facts otherwise your words means nothing.

I don't understand what you mean so please explain better yourself. I'm not joking.

 

how to into 'do facts'

[Cobra847]

Gents, chill out- this thread is supposed to be for constructive, scientific discussion- not discussing our development priorities or analogies.

A performance tweak pass for the remaining discrepancies will be implemented, we will get to it soonest. 

There is no point in whether or not it will happen- as it simply will. There are more pressing concerns across our product stack that we are working on first as the scale of the Tomcat FM issues is relatively minor. This informs and drives our prioritization.

Keep this thread to discussing said inconsistencies and FM discussion overall.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Cobra847