WHY IS EVERY CAMPAIGN SINGLE PLAYER ONLY??

[fastfed]

seriously, I cannot wrap my head around this. No one says they have to be played Coop only, but why is the option not there? I thought it was some crazy hard scripting or something but after playing the f86 hunters campaign, two of the missions were coop.. two of them. TWOOOOOOOOO ONLY TWOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

 

 

Seriously, why? Every mission you're out with 10+ planes, there is no reason to not make every mission have the option to play coop. Lets face it, the online servers suck here, there is never a point to any of them except to just fly around and bomb the same exact target over and over, with campaigns you have awesome stories and missions that you feel like you are actually accomplishing something..

 

Hate to say it, as bad as Ace high 3 looks, it feels good to play it since you actually matter, unlike all online servers here. 

 

Developers, you will also make more money, I bet anything you make a crappy f18 or f16 campaign and just add the option of having it be coop and it will be the #1 sold campaign! 

 

TLDR; 

Make every campaign coop possible, make more money with sales. This is easy! 

 

I'm out!

rant over

[Dangerzone]

I have mostly been a co-op player  - love co-op games so I get where you're coming from. However I've been told that I'm in the minority and that the vast majority of DCS players are single-player only. 

 

Again - I don't get that because I much prefer to fly with others and share the experience... but this is what I've been told - so it makes sense to put more effort into designing more single player missions for a cash return than to accommodate to the multi-player who are the minority. From my experience there would be more effort in designing a campaign that allowed for both single and co-op scenario's in the same lot - and it may be better profit for time to just design more single-player campaigns in the market than put in that extra effort - I don't know. 

 

I thought about doing the same thing (making co-op campaigns) but the more I looked into it as I started off - the more it made sense in the end to look at designing a very large dynamic persistent multi-player mission rather than a campaign. Ones that cover as much of the map as possible, with a variety of different objectives and randomised (as much as possible) scenario's that are persistent (save when you're finished and you can continue later).

 

I've seen other servers out with similar goals. It allows for more variety, additional features (such as overlord-bot - which IMO is simply incredible to fly with online - which you're simply not going to get with co-op campaigns), etc - so for those looking for a co-op style of campaign, it kinda makes sense to create a multi-player server (even if it's locked down in a closed community) that has a persistent scenario that can last weeks (if not months) that changes dynamically but can be progressed through. 

 

I get that this still doesn't fill the hole for those just wanting to play with a friend through a campaign - and you're right - but it seems as though it's such a minority (and I include myself in that - I'd enjoy going through something like this too) - but I dare say those who would be inclined to design something that way would end up like myself leaning towards designing an online multiplayer scenario instead.

 

Sucks for those who don't want MP and want a co-op style campaign - but the great news is if you're really that passionate about it - DCS comes with the same tools that campaign designers use - so there's nothing from stopping you from making some up (I just suspect that if you start, there's a possibility you may go down the same road as I and end up doing it more as a single very large persistent online multiplayer mission) 

[Reflected]

Because

 

1) not a lot of players want to play coop, compared to SP guys

2) converting to Coop can be a PITA, because you have to revise several triggers, make sure they work - with several players you have exponentially more potential outcomes

3) several functionalities in the mission editor don't work in coop/ multicrew mode. 

4) Instead of having to maintain a dozen missions I'd have two dozen. And with DCS being an ever changing code/ environment, it's already a lot of work to make sure every mission works in every patch

5) I can't test those missions properly (shitty connection)

 

 

It wasn't even advertised that Hunters would have a coop version, I added 2 missions later as a bonus, because some people asked nicely. I thought 2 would be a good compromise - I can still keep them updated, and you guys would have at least some missions to play in coop mode.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Reflected

[fastfed]

12 hours ago, Reflected said:

Because

 

1) not a lot of players want to play coop, compared to SP guys

2) converting to Coop can be a PITA, because you have to revise several triggers, make sure they work - with several players you have exponentially more potential outcomes

3) several functionalities in the mission editor don't work in coop/ multicrew mode. 

4) Instead of having to maintain a dozen missions I'd have two dozen. And with DCS being an ever changing code/ environment, it's already a lot of work to make sure every mission works in every patch

5) I can't test those missions properly (shitty connection)

 

 

It wasn't even advertised that Hunters would have a coop version, I added 2 missions later as a bonus, because some people asked nicely. I thought 2 would be a good compromise - I can still keep them updated, and you guys would have at least some missions to play in coop mode.

 

1. Says who? is there more people playing this single player, yes but its the online community that makes waves.

2.so you converted coop from a single player campaign/mission, how about start out with just having one of those 16 ai planes available for another player. from the get go

3. this would make sense, like what? I played your entire campaign and the coop ones, guess what, I saw zero difference, only it was 1000000000000000% more fun

4. are you saying one mission cannot be single player AND coop?

 

 

Dude, just try this, make 1 campaign and make it single player/coop, advertise (play with a friend) I'm going to bet your time will be worth it. You will get the single player people buying it and now you will get the multiplayer people only times TWO!!

 

I'm not wrong here, look at other platforms, IL2 is a huge online playerbase and so is much of the rest of gaming these days.

Finally, all aircraft if im not mistaken have wingmen, it only makes sense!

 

 

PS, why lock the game files? I could have went into mission editor and just added another plane, it might have messed with the triggers, but every single player missions only i was able to do that with , it still worked.

 

 

[Reflected]

1. Coop people are a minority. There's a lot of SP and MP, but coop is in the middle, a bit of a niche. I acknowledge their existence and the need, this is why I added 2 coop versions, but that's exactly the amount of time and effort I have available for this. It's a lot more work than you'd realize, and I'm a one man show.

2. 16 planes as slots? What if  you don't have 15 friends to play with? Would you set out with 2 aircraft against 30 enemies? Or should I just release a 2 player, 4 player, 8 player and 16 player version of each mission? See my point? Sorry, that's a crazy amount of work, and relatively pointless. 

3. That's because I had to revise the missions trigger by trigger to make sure they always work. Converting a mission to coop is not a matter of changing the aircraft from AI to 'Client'. It's a LOT of work. Also, the coop versions of my F-14 campaign are still broken because of a core ED bug. I have zero control over it getting fixed, and I just keep answering the same question time after time: when will it be fixed? No idea. 

4. It can't. Official campaigns require a unit to be set to 'player'. I tried to release one with 'client' only, but it bounced back from ED due to the campaign engine.

 

+1: Every person wants different campaigns. Some like 100% realism, some want arcade fun. Some want SP, some want coop. Some want cold start, some want airstart. Some want easy enemies, some want expert AI. I can't possibly release 60 versions of each of my missions. I make them the way I like them, and if people like it too, that's great. If not, I understand, there are several great campaign makers with slightly different approaches. It's like books. Some like a particular writer, some don't. But no writer should aim for writing a book that EVERYONE likes. Write a book that YOU like, and like minded people will like it too.

 

PS: because if the file wasn't locked you could just copy paste it and send it to your friends. Only the first person would have to buy it, and I'd end up working for a year or more for 9.99.

[QuiGon]

I'm also one of those guys who desperately wants to play coop campaigns, but I always thought the biggest show stopper is the DCS menu structure, which doesn't allow for multiplayer campaigns. Currently it is only possible to play single missions in multiplayer, but not actual campaigns. Check it yourself: Launch DCS and go to the Campaign menu and you will see that there is no option for multiplayer at all. Vice versa there is no campaign option in the multiplayer menu, as you can only launch single multiplayers missions there.

 

Now this is not a problem for free community campaigns, as they can just be played as single missions, one after the other, but for the really high quality DLC campaigns this doesn't work, because the copy protection for them requires them to be played through the campaign menu as actual campaigns. It's not possible to play them as single missions, which would be required for multiplayer/coop.

 

So unless ED changes the way campaigns work in DCS, there is no way for high quality DLC campaigns to be played in coop. At least that's what I have thought, but I'm a bit suprised @Reflected hasn't listed this as an issue?

Edited July 3, 2021 by QuiGon

[Reflected]

@QuiGon last time I checked DLC campaign missions can be opened one by one in the mission editor and played. You just can't modify triggers.

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

18 hours ago, fastfed said:

1. Says who? is there more people playing this single player, yes but its the online community that makes waves.

2.so you converted coop from a single player campaign/mission, how about start out with just having one of those 16 ai planes available for another player. from the get go

3. this would make sense, like what? I played your entire campaign and the coop ones, guess what, I saw zero difference, only it was 1000000000000000% more fun

4. are you saying one mission cannot be single player AND coop?

 

 

Dude, just try this, make 1 campaign and make it single player/coop, advertise (play with a friend) I'm going to bet your time will be worth it. You will get the single player people buying it and now you will get the multiplayer people only times TWO!!

 

I'm not wrong here, look at other platforms, IL2 is a huge online playerbase and so is much of the rest of gaming these days.

Finally, all aircraft if im not mistaken have wingmen, it only makes sense!

 

 

PS, why lock the game files? I could have went into mission editor and just added another plane, it might have messed with the triggers, but every single player missions only i was able to do that with , it still worked.

 

 

Dude, I look forward to playing to playing your coop missions. When can I download them? Shouldn’t be too difficult to get them finished.  Let me know!

[QuiGon]

5 hours ago, Reflected said:

@QuiGon last time I checked DLC campaign missions can be opened one by one in the mission editor and played. You just can't modify triggers.

 

Oh wow, that's news to me! But well, without being able to modify triggers it might be difficult to convert DLC campaigns to coop use, depending on how they're set up.

I'll investigate that now. Time to buy some new campaigns I guess

[Reflected]

No you can’t modify them, all triggers and zones will be hidden by the protection. 

[fastfed]

On 7/3/2021 at 6:06 AM, Reflected said:

@QuiGon last time I checked DLC campaign missions can be opened one by one in the mission editor and played. You just can't modify triggers.

This is simply not true, if it was I wouldn't be making much of a stink. you cannot save DLC campaigns in the mission editor so nothing you can do to make it coop.

 

That said I didn;t want to quote everything you said above , but I will answer a few, you say coop is the minority, what is this based on? did you make a coop mission and it didn't sell well? no you didn't, maybe its a minority because we have no other choice at the moment, I've said to you a few times now, make a coop campaign like you did with a couple missions , but make them all possible and I will put my money where my mouth is, it will sell more than any other DLC campaign.

 

as for your #2, about going out with 16 planes, you made a couple missions coop already, I have played them with a coop friend and played them single player. THEY PLAYED PERFECTLY FINE IN BOTH CASES!! I dont see the problem here.

 

 

Oh and the reason I'm replying now.. Looks like ED gets it finally and I bet we will start seeing coop campaigns soon, just was hoping you would be first, rake that cash in bro!

 

[Nealius]

Even if you could save the .miz file, you're locked out of changing player slots to client slots as well. The drop-down is greyed out.

[Reflected]

@fastfed that's not what I said. I said it can be opened in the ME and played separately. not saved.

 

I already explained this above, but let me put it this way:

 

I currently have approximately 100 missions released. After each DCS update, each little change I have to make sure they work flawlessly. I can't afford having them broken in any way, people paid for it.  It's not as easy as you think: AI behavior, and little things change all the time. If I offered a coop version of each mission, I would have 200 missions to test and update constantly. I simply can't do that. That's why I settled for 2 coop missions per campaign.

 

[wowbagger]

5 hours ago, fastfed said:

This is simply not true, if it was I wouldn't be making much of a stink...

 

I know you're not asking Reflected to provide free coop versions of every single player mission in his campaigns - that clearly makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

Coop campaigns would be great. Reflected has gone out of his way to provide free bonus coop content with his single player dlc products (has anyone else done this?). 

 

It's just that you're making your stink in the wrong place. DCS copy protection currently doesn't work with multiplayer, it is that simple. Your majuscule question and rant are better seen / heard in the DCS World 2.7 main  forum thread. Content creators have zero control over this - they don't add the copy protection and have no control over how it works. Petition ED with your request.

 

However I will be (very pleasantly) surprised if coop DLC campaigns can be made to work, with an updated copy-protection system, before the eventual dynamic campaign is ready to release.

Edited July 19, 2021 by wowbagger

[QuiGon]

13 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

However I will be (very pleasantly) surprised if coop DLC campaigns can be made to work, with an updated copy-protection system, before the eventual dynamic campaign is ready to release.

 

I really hope for such an update to the copy-protection system to allow coop paid DLC campaigns.

[Spartan111sqn]

I can imagine flying zone 5 campaign, which is awesome, with a human wingman, coordination and all that stuf, it would be awesome.

 

Thanks @Reflected for yousr continuous support.

 

I am sure when it will be possible without a headache for him we will have it.

[fastfed]

17 hours ago, wowbagger said:

 

I know you're not asking Reflected to provide free coop versions of every single player mission in his campaigns - that clearly makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

Coop campaigns would be great. Reflected has gone out of his way to provide free bonus coop content with his single player dlc products (has anyone else done this?). 

 

It's just that you're making your stink in the wrong place. DCS copy protection currently doesn't work with multiplayer, it is that simple. Your majuscule question and rant are better seen / heard in the DCS World 2.7 main  forum thread. Content creators have zero control over this - they don't add the copy protection and have no control over how it works. Petition ED with your request.

 

However I will be (very pleasantly) surprised if coop DLC campaigns can be made to work, with an updated copy-protection system, before the eventual dynamic campaign is ready to release.

 

umm nooo. The complete opposite. If he made coop campaigns and advertised it that way, not only just 1 person would be stuck buying it, it would be 2. You would also have a huge increase of never before population buying it, those thousands of people or more that ONLY play multiplayer.

 

my point is, it not only can be done, its already being done and being done by the one developers someone complaining about doing it. I will sponsor him, pay him to simply make a coop campaign, make it only 5 missions it will still be the #1 sold campaign I will bet on it

[wowbagger]

Sorry, I haven't a clue what you're trying to say. 

[JG54_NF2]

For me, the difficulty of multitasking is trigger limited because of the trigger rules of DCS.

Of which:

Some triggers can only function in single person state

In addition, the workload of setting rules for multiple players will increase exponentially

for instance

Single player missions only require the behavior of one aircraft (player).

In the case of multiple players, I need to set the same trigger detection for both players. In addition, I also need to consider the interaction between players, that is, the result of 2x2. If there are four players, the possible detection amount is 4x4, which is equal to 16 times magnification.

In a single story task with complex and perfect settings, a task may usually include hundreds of triggers. If it is magnified by 16 times, the production and maintenance cost will be outrageous.

Of course, using some scripts will alleviate such obstacles, but it is still unlikely to be cured.

 

Therefore, in DCS, the production cost of designing a multi player or multi model task will be higher.

For my campaign, a multiplayer version is in the process of production, but it is not open to the public at present. It is an experimental project.

Maybe I'll consider doing a MP Campaign when I have a chance in the future - it still depends on the cost, isn't it. 

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by JG54_NF2

[QuiGon]

3 hours ago, JG54_NF2 said:

In the case of multiple players, I need to set the same trigger detection for both players. In addition, I also need to consider the interaction between players, that is, the result of 2x2. If there are four players, the possible detection amount is 4x4, which is equal to 16 times magnification.

 

In many instances you can just use group detection triggers instead of single aircraft detection triggers. I understand, that this doesn't work well in all cases, but it does work fine in many cases, so that the number of triggers doesn't increase exponentially.

[Reflected]

3 hours ago, QuiGon said:

 

In many instances you can just use group detection triggers instead of single aircraft detection triggers. I understand, that this doesn't work well in all cases, but it does work fine in many cases, so that the number of triggers doesn't increase exponentially.

 

Theoretically, yes.

 

But as they say: theoretically, practice and theory are the same, but in practice they are very different.

[JG54_NF2]

12小时前,QuiGon说:

 

In many instances you can just use group detection triggers instead of single aircraft detection triggers. I understand, that this doesn't work well in all cases, but it does work fine in many cases, so that the number of triggers doesn't increase exponentially.

I know, but group detection triggers can only work on groups. If some actions must be assigned to a single unit, for example, some units are forced to be hidden, while others are to be opened, the judgment of a single object is inevitable. Especially when the unit is real player, its behavior is even more unpredictable. It often happens that the behavior of some players exceeds the expectation of the mission author, resulting in all kinds of strange problems in the mission. So,  the bug was born. 

lol...

[QuiGon]

15 hours ago, JG54_NF2 said:

I know, but group detection triggers can only work on groups. If some actions must be assigned to a single unit, for example, some units are forced to be hidden, while others are to be opened, the judgment of a single object is inevitable. Especially when the unit is real player, its behavior is even more unpredictable. It often happens that the behavior of some players exceeds the expectation of the mission author, resulting in all kinds of strange problems in the mission. So,  the bug was born. 

lol...

 

Yes, I totally understand that, which is why I said that not all detection trigger issues in coop missions can be solved with group detection triggers, but some/many can.