An Open Letter to the Community

[ZaltysZ]

As good as the online activation might be, as you posted: You cannot compare flightsims to other games, as most other games are mostly online games today.

 

While the larger portion of players buying CoD4, for example, have internet access and intend to play the game online, a largely smaller percentage of customers buy LockOn or BS to play it online.

 

In other words: If you make online activation a must, you deny access to BS to a lot of customers who don't have internet-access.

 

 

Well, but I'm sure ED knows, so let's wait for some official word on this, before we cross the 100pages sound-barrier with our assumptions. :smilewink:

 

I think there is activation by internet, which is simple, and old fashioned manual activation, when you use phone to dictate hardware id and get activation key to enter it in game. At least SF states so..., however I don't know if ED will support activation by phone.

Edited October 27, 2008 by ZaltysZ

[Groove]

The "flaw" in this debate is that you don't know the whole sale numbers plus how many people which bought the game fly it only offline.

 

Im talking about LO / LO:FC btw.

[DaWu]

 

Your idea is nice, but anyone can copy a serial ... so then, how do you decide when to ban a serial? :) I suppose you could always watch to see if it suddenly comes from 50 different IP's. Second, the downloaded upgrade needs to be stored somewhere. The installer would then have to do the check itself somehow, otherwise how do you deal with people who do not have internet access?

 

Aha? And what are the people without internet access supposed to do if the need to do an online activitation?

 

I understand that you are trying to best protect your product. But why does this need to happen in a way that only the loyal buyers have to suffer? far cry 2 has a online acitvitation and there is a cracked exe where you dont need any activitation at all.

 

spare the money on cp which will never function and is useless anyways

[GGTharos]

Aha? And what are the people without internet access supposed to do if the need to do an online activitation?

 

You can activate by phone.

 

spare the money on cp which will never function and is useless anyways

 

I'll repeat once again, that ED has found that the CP both functions, and is very useful for protecting the product, from actual REAL sales figures and revenue, not people's guesses as to how it might all work.

[Feuerfalke]

As I posted, let's wait for the official news.

 

@ GranCalvo

 

Selling pirated software is not allowed anywhere. Some places on this planet just care less about this than others.

 

And of course this doesn't mean cracking software is normal, so copy-protection should be disregarded. That's like closing all fire-departments, because they can't prevent fires from starting anyway.

[Maulkin]

The installer would then have to do the check itself somehow, otherwise how do you deal with people who do not have internet access?

 

I think people without internet access will be unable, or at least less likely, to participate in piracy IMO.

 

While I agree that ED has tracked numbers against lost sales due to piracy and the impact to that with CP, do they also have numbers for lost sales due to the CP of choice? That might be a bit harder to track.

 

Now before everyone goes crazy, I am not advocating no CP at all (that is just crazy) but I just want ED to be aware that the type of CP they choose could impact the number of sales as well.

 

The crappy part is that for most software titles they do not clearly explain what kind of CP scheme they are using so it is usually the consumer that gets screwed over after they purchase and attempt to install it, unless the consumer does their homework well after the software is released so there is time to Google all the complaints against it.

 

As I stated before, if they go with the limited installations CP scheme, I will not purchase Black Shark. I had no problem with the scheme they used previously with Flaming Cliffs however.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Maulkin

[Prophet]

IMO most people who pirate BS are going to need support. Its too complicated, and if they dont ask questions they will give up on it.

 

At least for this forum you can tie the activation to the forum username. Have a seperate support sub-forum, and only allow access to those who have registered their copy.

 

Works that way for BioWare and Neverwinter nights. All of the products I have bought show under my avatar, and you only have access to forums you are registered for, besides the general.

[GGTharos]

I think people without internet access will be unable, or at least less likely, to participate in piracy IMO.

 

I don't think, but I in fact know that you are very wrong on this point, given that I have visited places where you don't need to any internet connection whatsoever to buy a pirated copy of some software off some guy selling it at the local corner. Yes. LITERALLY. No exagerration whatsoever.

 

While I agree that ED has tracked numbers against lost sales due to piracy and the impact to that with CP, do they also have numbers for lost sales due to the CP of choice? That might be a bit harder to track.

 

Not only harder, but also largely pointless - the idea is that a very benign CP allows the game to be easily pirated. You should only use it if it will actually do something for you.

 

It works like this:

 

-Put CP on the Game

-Do you get more, or less sales compared to your pirated game?

 

This is all that counts. If the CP used in effect reduces sales, then you won't see increased sales.

 

Now before everyone goes crazy, I am not advocating no CP at all (that is just crazy) but I just want ED to be aware that the type of CP they choose could impact the number of sales as well.

 

ED is very aware. I think their decision speaks for itself ... I really doubt that they like to gamble a whole lot with their earnings.

 

The crappy part is that for most software titles they do not clearly explain what kind of CP scheme they are using so it is usually the consumer that gets screwed over after they purchase and attempt to install it, unless the consumer does their homework well after the software is released so there is time to Google all the complaints against it.

 

There I agree; the more complex CP gets, the more cumbersome for the user - unless its uniform across a lot of games, and I think you can see than in concept, it is.

 

As I stated before, if they go with the limited installations CP scheme, I will not purchase Black Shark. I had no problem with the scheme they used previously with Flaming Cliffs however.

 

Unfortunately that scheme is no longer viable. I don't know if activations for the DVD will be limited or not at this time.

[GGTharos]

And I think I will have to repeat again that the off-line install base is significantly larger than the on-line install base for this type of game. :)

 

Because DCS is a product which does NOT require for it to be played online, many people do not wish to play it on-line, register on forums, and so on and so forth.

 

I know! I can hardly believe it myself! It's simply the way it is.

 

Nevertheless, perhaps there's something in there.

 

IMO most people who pirate BS are going to need support. Its too complicated, and if they dont ask questions they will give up on it.

 

At least for this forum you can tie the activation to the forum username. Have a seperate support sub-forum, and only allow access to those who have registered their copy.

 

Works that way for BioWare and Neverwinter nights. All of the products I have bought show under my avatar, and you only have access to forums you are registered for, besides the general.

[Havner]

Thank you ED for keeping us updated. I really appreciate it. And as probably one of the few here I can already thank you for BlackShark. I already own my copy (have a luck to have a Russian friend) and I'm able to play it already (with small trick to turn on EN).

 

But I need to stand with the people that refuse to buy anything that has a limited number of activations. I never did and never will. I was ready to buy english version the moment it is released. If it's going to have limited number of activations count me out. If the new patch will turn my DVD version into online activation check I'll probably stop playing it (or will refuse to patch and won't buy any other DCS modules).

Someone said in this thread that it's almost a matter of ethics for the software to be able to be installed while offline. Ditto. It's all about Own vs. Rent for me as well.

 

You say you make your decision based on previous experience with LOMAC and FC. You should also check the percentage of people here, on the forums, on this very thread that refuse to buy online activation version. We are to some degree a representative group of your customers (at least this more hardcore one).

 

Anyway, keep up a good work and I hope you will make a good decision.

 

And at the end to say something constructive, read this:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5402

 

This is a copy protection that was supposed to be used in Sacred 2. I think it is really interesting. And while I'm against any form of online CP this is the only one I might consider fair and there would be some people here that'd agree with me. It's key points:

- ONE activation at a time, ever.

- always a chance to revoke, even without having previous install (computer burned) using net or phone.

- revoke and reactivate process is UNLIMITED (only limits per day which is understandable)

- promise by the publisher that if online servers go down they release a patch removing activation completely.

 

This is a scheme that would be a compromise for me. If you're really into online activation I'd consider the above one if I were you.

 

Nevertheless, perhaps there's something in there.

 

Talking about support and registration. Egosoft does the same. I've bought X3 Terran Conflict, it shows under my avatar and only this way I can write posts in all X3TC sections. That's good idea as well. And my DVD version has a key as well, so this one could be used to achieve that.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Havner

[foxyboy1964]

It is enough to sell the pirate copy at 5-10% less than the original for people to buy it instead of the original, GranCalvo. To a large degree, I would think in such cases it really is a lot of lost sales.

 

As far as the actual number of lost sales, you seem to be thinking that because it cannot be judged with extreme accuracy, it should be ignored. I disagree, and obviously, so does ED.

 

Again, even if lost sales is only 5-10%, the actual amount of money it represents is a very large sum - so yes, it does make sense.

 

Surely ED will incur a high percentage of lost sales if they employ an unpopular activation system?

 

Of course I respect ED's right to protect their property and, as I said earlier in this thread, I have no problems with SF or whatever CP is used. But if the final word from ED is that online/telephone activation will be required then, sadly, I'll have to give this series of games a miss. Which is a bit of a downer really.

[Phantom_Mark]

IMO most people who pirate BS are going to need support. Its too complicated, and if they dont ask questions they will give up on it.

 

At least for this forum you can tie the activation to the forum username. Have a seperate support sub-forum, and only allow access to those who have registered their copy.

 

Works that way for BioWare and Neverwinter nights. All of the products I have bought show under my avatar, and you only have access to forums you are registered for, besides the general.

 

I really love that idea / system :)

[f-18hornet]

Surely ED will incur a high percentage of lost sales if they employ an unpopular activation system?

 

Of course I respect ED's right to protect their property and, as I said earlier in this thread, I have no problems with SF or whatever CP is used. But if the final word from ED is that online/telephone activation will be required then, sadly, I'll have to give this series of games a miss. Which is a bit of a downer really.

 

I can just say I've to agree with you.:cry:

[GGTharos]

Surely ED will incur a high percentage of lost sales if they employ an unpopular activation system?

 

Have a look at what EA reported about changing their copyright scheme with respect to the number of customers who actually made a fuss about it; in this case, EA did change the details of their CP, but it was for a very small number of very vocal individuals, considering their entire customer base. In this case, though, I should say their decision made sense, at least to me ;)

 

Of course I respect ED's right to protect their property and, as I said earlier in this thread, I have no problems with SF or whatever CP is used. But if the final word from ED is that online/telephone activation will be required then, sadly, I'll have to give this series of games a miss. Which is a bit of a downer really.

The word is indeed final as far as I know, that the CP will be SF, and it will require online/phone activation. I don't know the details of the activations (ie, will they actually be limited, vs. getting a perpetual activation/deactivation cycle).

 

I really don't see what the problem is here (at least with unlimited deactivations) as this isn't any more of a hassle than entering a CD key, at least for the on-line part.

 

There are reasons that activations were chosen over DVD-checks. I can say that a large part of the decision was in fact out of respect to you guys, ED's customers. Again, I can't discuss the actual reasons, so believe me or not if you will - I personally believe it was the better choice for both ED -and- the customer.

 

In the end, as was said in the originating post of this thread - while ED values each customer, it is also the case that ED knows they cannot please everyone, and you are naturally free to vote with your wallet so to speak. It is certainly unfortunate if this deters you or anyone else from acquiring DCS.

Edited October 27, 2008 by GGTharos

[deviletk]

I believe you GG! And i belive in ED, can i get a Hallelulja! :)

 

Online activation is fine. So many programs are using this from example Adobe wich i work with everyday. You activate it and go, no problems at all.

 

Regards

Alex

[foxyboy1964]

The word is indeed final as far as I know...

 

OK, thanks for the info. I'm disappointed, but I appreciate your candour :thumbup:

[Feuerfalke]

Have a look at what EA reported about changing their copyright scheme with respect to the number of customers who actually made a fuss about it; in this case, EA did change the details of their CP, but it was for a very small number of very vocal individuals, considering their entire customer base. In this case, though, I should say their decision made sense, at least to me ;)

 

 

True, but I'm not aware that EA did change the copyright-scheme for a game-release, which was already released and cracked.

 

The sense of feeling treated unfair and why so many people are upset does not initially come from the fact that there will be hard copy-protection measures, but from the fact that these will be applied to a 3-4 months away release of a game, that was already released and cracked 2 weeks ago in an other language version.

 

As I stated before, of course that is no excuse to leave the CP aside, but the combination of circumstances makes me fear that this decision will increase the numbe of illegal copies, not lower them. :(

[GGTharos]

True, but I'm not aware that EA did change the copyright-scheme for a game-release, which was already released and cracked.

 

I'm only talking about the numbers they presented though, not their circumstances. DCS circumstances are what they are.

 

The sense of feeling treated unfair and why so many people are upset does not initially come from the fact that there will be hard copy-protection measures, but from the fact that these will be applied to a 3-4 months away release of a game, that was already released and cracked 2 weeks ago in an other language version.

 

I understand that people feel that they are being treated unfairly. I believe however that it is no more unfair than locking your doors at night, and if someone comes in through a window, putting bars on those windows. As an honest neighbour, would you feel unfairly treated?

 

 

As I stated before, of course that is no excuse to leave the CP aside, but the combination of circumstances makes me fear that this decision will increase the numbe of illegal copies, not lower them. :(

 

The lid on what has happened cannot be closed, this is true; but it can be managed. I don't think ED's decision was a bad one :)

[Feuerfalke]

Roger that.

 

Let's wait for the official news and hope for the best.

 

(Honestly, if my neighbour would install an electric fence with code-entry, fingerprints and personal approvement for entry between my house and his, while he keeps the collapsed 30cm wooden-fence on the other side, yes, I would feel treated unfair no matter how honest I might be. ;) )

Edited October 27, 2008 by Feuerfalke

[Jester_159th]

I understand that people feel that they are being treated unfairly. I believe however that it is no more unfair than locking your doors at night, and if someone comes in through a window, putting bars on those windows. As an honest neighbour, would you feel unfairly treated?

 

Your analogy is flawed since your neighbour doesn't own your house or pay to have free and regular access to it (read: use the software).

 

I fully support ED's right to protect their work, but I personally do feel that penalising the international comunity because the Russian version has been pirated is futile and ultimately counterproductive.

 

Also I'd like more clarification on the activate by phone option: Would this entail the customer base having to pay for an international phone call to activate the software if they don't have internet access available?

[Vosene]

Have a look at what EA reported about changing their copyright scheme with respect to the number of customers who actually made a fuss about it; in this case, EA did change the details of their CP, but it was for a very small number of very vocal individuals, considering their entire customer base. In this case, though, I should say their decision made sense, at least to me ;)

 

Heaven forbid that the top man at EA would spin us a PR line. :D

 

Before it's release Spore sales were estimated at about 2 million units to the end of September. As it is they reached about 1.15 million units by the end of the month. Not too shabby but almost 50% down on most industry estimates of what it would shift. Difficult to know how much was down to the DRM issues but I doubt it was an insignificant factor otherwise they wouldn't have been so quick to relax the DRM a bit.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Vosene

[mckee14]

i really don't see the problems with online activation, phone activation or limited installs. almost every software is having it in a form or another.

 

i prefer to KNOW about it in advance, not like many other products which tend do "call home" and send informations about this and that from your hard- and software...

 

if you feel treated like a criminal because a product you buy is secured against criminals, you should maybe talk to someone or take some pills or whatever ;). no, seriously, you feel offended by all the locks on all the cars on the street? you wouldn't steal them - but maybe someone else!? so you have to deal with all the keys and stuff like that. and even worse... you have to drive your product to a officially approved mechanic to make some maintenance from time to time, otherwise you loose your guarantee. and it costs money!

 

jesus, the world is evil!

 

btw - for all the windows users, read the license of use (which you agreed) only ONCE. maybe you will be surpised :)

[ryuzu]

Another lamentable debate about CP - seems you can't go to an entertainment software forum these days without the tripping over the obligatory CP thread!

 

The reality is that in some sense the various cracking groups are in fact supporting the CP industry and make it viable! The two are in a symbiotic relationship - they need each other and it's in the interests of the CP companies that the crackers keep breaking the CP - that way the CP companies have an excuse to keep charging more and more for better levels of security (while pointing out how rampant piracy is - not mentioning it must be down to their ineffective code). Meanwhile the professional pirates (the ones who make money from illegal copies) require CP to be present in the software for it to be possible for them to sell.

 

The only people who lose are those who legitimately buy the software in the first place and in this case ED since they have to pay some ridiculous fee to SF or whoever for something which is not only tantamount to useless but in fact is enabling piracy - the big winners of course are the CP company and the pirates - those two groups win regardless.

 

It's a sad state of affairs - while I've not had a problem with CP personally, I view the whole thing like charging to use a toilet - rather irritating to most normal people, and the people who p**s in the street will just carry on doing that no matter how clean those toilets might be...

 

r.

[Vosene]

if you feel treated like a criminal because a product you buy is secured against criminals, you should maybe talk to someone or take some pills or whatever ;). no, seriously, you feel offended by all the locks on all the cars on the street? you wouldn't steal them - but maybe someone else!? so you have to deal with all the keys and stuff like that. and even worse... you have to drive your product to a officially approved mechanic to make some maintenance from time to time, otherwise you loose your guarantee. and it costs money!

 

Flawed analogy I'm afraid. I see some value from having locks on my car, they are there for my direct benefit as per locks on the front door of my house. DRM only benefits the publisher, while the customer only gets inconvenienced by DRM'd products. It doesn't stop the pirates and they don't have to worry about DRM restrictions as they have been removed/bypassed on the pirated version. There is an interesting article that covers this very point here:

 

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/hated-and-broken_0

 

Would you buy a car knowing that at any time the dealer could simply stop you using the product without you having any recourse, that you might not be able to sell it second hand or that if the dealer went bust you wouldn't be able to use the car any more? That sounds more like a hire car to me, in which case I'd expect to be paying hire car prices. That is effectively what DRM is, the renting of software, and it should be priced accordingly.

 

The music industry have recently adopted a new model where, for a fixed fee each month, you can have access to millions of songs but they are DRM'd. If the games industry could agreed and charge a reasonable monthly fee, then I'd be happy to 'rent' the latest games and then just buy the ones I really liked for future use without any DRM (eg iTunes are now offering DRM free songs for a slightly higher fee).

 

One compromise, as I have suggested before, would be for a publisher to promise to remove all DRM after a set period (say 6-12 months) once the main sales have been achieved.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Vosene

[GGTharos]

In order for the CP to continue to work, it cannot be stripped from previous releases. Further, why would a company in their right mind strip it after 6-12 months when people might still want to buy this or that module?

 

You are being given the key to that software - assuming you get an unlimited activation/deactivation cycle, what is the problem? Is typing that key in when you install really that big of a problem for you?

 

Jester: That is a very good question, and I don't have an answer for you. Been wondering myself.