P51 - handle with care

[StankFaust]

Wings fall off

engine readily degrades and dies for a long list of reasons

any damage received is lethal

Engine seems underpowered (MAP should go higher? like 72 or 75. cant remember what I read)

 

I thought the p51 was america's front line fighter and capable of quite a bit, but it's clearly outclassed as modeled here, particularly when compared to the dora 9.  Here it's more of a ground and pound vehicle and the P47 is way better in that role.

[razo+r]

Wings fall off if you take damage or pull too many Gs.

 

P-51 in DCS does not have 150 octane fuel so we won't see 7X MP.

 

And for any other issue post a track or video so we can see if it's actually a bug or you doing something wrong.

[Hiob]

Interesting, how perceptions differ.

I found the mustang the easiest to fly from all warbirds, which makes it one of the easiest to win a dogfight with.

Tearing off wings? Not since I learned (for every aircraft) that you need to handle Gs like the brake of a motorcycle. Always build up the force, never apply a big force instantaneous.

(Same goes for the F-14, snapped the wings quite often in the beginning, but never since then).

 

Only critique I'd apply would be the pea-shooter guns...

At least against AI, they seem close to useless sometimes.

 

I can't say anything to the performance, but the wings - from my point of view - are on you.

[BM357_TinMan]

She is definitely squirrelly and requires finesse, especially in a sim where you can easily whip the control surface around with a lot less force and a lot less deflection of the stick when compared to real life.

 

In my experience against AI, it can easily defeat the D9 and the A8.  The only German AI that can offer a (very frustrating) challenge is the 109 K4.

 

It takes stick time; learn to handle the control surfaces lightly.  Keep your speed above 200.  Dip into the above 50+ MP for short spurts...etc.  She's not a crappy as she appears to be at first blush.  My initial impressions were very much the same as what you have expressed in your original post here, so I speak from experience.

[Hiob]

granted.

The mustang was one of my first modules (and shares the FM with the free trainer).

Things like stalling one wing, when pulling hard, over revving the engine, or overstressing it in a long max power fight, snapping the wings....

I had all this too in the beginning.

It's just something, that can relatively easy been overcome by training.

 

edit: atm I seemingly can't fly the mossie at all without blowing an engine.... I "hate" it! (not!!)

Edited September 20, 2021 by Hiob

[River]

But the engine damage from enemy fire is still a joke compared to the axis planes.

Otherwise it's a fine fighter. 

[StankFaust]

Thanks for the input.

 

I found that the wing ripping off is from the accelerated stall that is induced from initiating too much pitch too quickly.  It stalls a wing (usually the left) and if your speed is high enough it rips that wing off.

 

I remember reading about all the wings falling off p51's in wwii... epidemic (/sarcasm)  

 

As it's the suddeness of the pitch change that leads me to believe it's responsible for ripping my wing off, I lowered the X axis curve for pitch down until this phenomena stopped.  That was at 45% on the x axis.  For curve I use 15%.  I have not torn a wing off since and still have what feels like plenty of low speed control authority.

 

On 9/20/2021 at 7:54 AM, BM357_TinMan said:

Dip into the above 50+ MP for short spurts...etc. 

 

typically when Im in a fight, I am on the throttle. I dont use wep because Im terrified that I'll nuke the engine.  When you're fighting, are you coming off throttle and RPM for manuevering or something?

 

Also, anytime I get into the vertical and dont have enough speed to carry me over the top (maybe im hanging too long for a shot solution) I nuke the engine immediately.  Is there something from an engine management standpoint that I should do in a situation like this to save the engine?  Pulling power and rpm's back does not seem to help.

On 9/20/2021 at 7:39 AM, razo+r said:

P-51 in DCS does not have 150 octane fuel so we won't see 7X MP.

I heard we used 100 130 and 150.  (looks like they modelled 100 here?) It's frustrating to be at a 500 hp defecit to your opponents when that doesnt appear to be historically the case.  That could be from me being raised in america under the proganda of the indomitable p51.  So my view could be biased, it just seems that the germas (with MW 50) have a tremendous advantage.

[Art-J]

4 hours ago, StankFaust said:

I heard we used 100 130 and 150.  (looks like they modelled 100 here?)

 

Just on a sidenote of this discussion, it's 100/130 and 100/150. In aviation, gasoline grades were given in double numbers, because the rating of the same fuel changes depending on air-fuel mixture ratio (it's lower with lean mixture, becomes higher with rich one).

 

Today's avgas 100LL is designated with one number just for the sake of simplicity, but the same rule applies (and it's close in performance to "old" 100/130 by the way).

Edited September 30, 2021 by Art-J

[StankFaust]

Thanks for that

from an engine management standpoint, do you ever switch the fuel from run to full rich?  Whenever I click on it in flight it cycles to 'off' first before going to full rich.  Curious if there's extra ponies in there for the hassle?  Is it altitude specific?

 

[PD919]

I've noticed joystick curves kill the plane in a turn.  The sudden acceleration in stick movement breaks wings or makes you spin out of control.  This plane needs to be flown with low or no curves and gently.

Edited October 1, 2021 by PD919

[Nealius]

I've found best success with a 20cm extension, 3 deadzone, 20 curve on pitch. Now I can happily pull 4G in the 20,000-25,000ft arena. With 0 curves it was impossible to gingerly move the stick because even minor movements would result in rapid G onset and accelerated stalls. It really sucks we have to tweak controllers so much to get normal performance out of modules.

[grafspee]

I have no extension and 15 curve, i have no problem with flying it. Just hand/arm precision matter here.

Fighting at 35k isn't a problem too for me. It is exhausting for longer periods because i have to fight centering spring which is that strongest at very low deflections like near center position.

Edited October 1, 2021 by grafspee

[StankFaust]

Does the accelerated stall feel correctly modeled?  She departs for me with no buffet.  You really have to be ginger on the stick.

most of what I o is the instant action dogfight witht the dora.  My curve is 14 my y sat is down to 45%

 

it keeps it from shedding wings from accelerated stalls at high speeds and the low speed manueverability doesnt seem to be affected by it much, hasnt cost me a dogfight yet.  I havent fought at high alt because I dont have an extra axis on this joystick to bind ram to.  so I've stayed low.(er)

[Nealius]

I've been wondering the same about buffet. I've never personally seen buffet due to my VR FOV and staring at bandits the whole time. The aircraft itself isn't in my view so I can't see the buffet even if it's there. A while back grafspee uploaded a video where you can see the buffet, and it is extremely sublte compared to the (rightly) exaggerated buffet on the Tomcat, which is much easier to "feel."

[DD_Fenrir]

As an FFB stick owner, there is definitely some buffet when approaching critical AoA but it's window of experience before reaching the stall is small - there is also a very slight shimmy visible in the cockpit when this occurs, though it is slight and if you are flying by visual feedback alone and concentrating on more pressing matters, like avoiding crossing the gunline of a scissoring 109/190, then it's easy to miss.

 

This all chimes in well with pilot accounts - modern civvy Mustangs, less heavily loaded and flown at lower power settings tend to have a slightly longer and more pronounced buffet region prior to accelerated stall, whereas the more heavily wing loaded wartime Mustangs being flown at higher RPM and MP settings could stall without warning, depending on their loading.

 

Indeed one period anecdote noted that where the P-40 would warn you that you were approaching the stall by buffeting, the first the P-51 let you know was by flipping on it's back.

 

Seems legit behaviour then.

 

Regards elevator pitch response - the trouble is not DCS. The trouble is the scale of desktop joystick controllers in comparison to their prototypes. Most warbird control columns are approaching a metre/3 feet long. This will displace 1.75cm for every degree. A desktop joystick controller of only 25cm will displace 4.4mm in the same angle. Ergo if you try to replicate a flight control input that would require 1mm of movement in the real aircraft you are obliged to make a correction almost 4 x smaller. Add to this issue a chance that some compression maybe required, where you might be attempting to squeeze the greater angular travel of the real stick into less angular throw of a desktop stick and this will only compound the issue.

 

Suddenly, a desired aircraft input movement that might require 2mm of stick motion in the real aeroplane requires less than 0.5mm from you and your desktop stick.

 

Stick extensions help slightly but unless you replicate the throw of the prototype you will still end up with a harder handling experience.

 

Other sims have got around this by enforcing control curves or by using limiters and adjusting these limits/virtual throws by trim; each has it's own problems and is not the perfect choice.

 

DCS's controls interface allows you to choose the best compromise be enacting any and all or even a mix of these if you have the nous to do so.

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[grafspee]

accelerated stalls are very rapid sometimes going straight in to spin, especial at higher alts. I can see stall buff by whole air frame vibrating and i am able to stay on the edge, but this is not looks like that i pull my stick with single motion and i know exactly where is limit. I do pull with gradual increase.

P-51 is comparable to Dora but i must say Dora gives even less feed back before stalling.

It definitely require a lot of skill and training to be on edge of stalling while doing evasive maneuvers there is no doubt, maybe it is harder then in RL plane but you have countless tries in DCS

Edited October 1, 2021 by grafspee

[StankFaust]

12 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Indeed one period anecdote noted that where the P-40 would warn you that you were approaching the stall by buffeting, the first the P-51 let you know was by flipping on it's back

 

That's interesting, I hadn't heard that before.

[DD_Fenrir]

I'll try to dig out the book I got it from and let you know who the quoter was.

[Mogster]

Talks about the P51 stall being “vicious” only “slight” buffeting felt before the flip. Interesting comments about trimming hands off also, which he says is impossible.
 

https://www.flyingmag.com/aircrafts/pistons/jet-jockey-flies-p-51-mustang/