CV-59 Forrestal Feedback Thread

[Bridle Runner]

The Forrestal is modeled exceptionally well with exception to the aft area of each catapult. There are several inaccuracies in catapult launching area. The Mk1 Nose Gear Launch (NGL) system was introduced on December 19, 1962 when an E-2 Hawkeye and an A-6 Intruder were the first planes launched from the U.S.S. Enterprise using the new nose tow gear. This system was in place on the Forrestal until the ‘89-90 time period when it was replaced by the Mk2 NGL system. The Mk1 NGL system was mounted above deck and had to be removed when bridle launch planes were launched and prior to recovery operations on catapult 3. The Mk2 NGL system was a flush deck system which eliminated the need to remove the above deck equipment, with the only catapult shuttle spreader requiring to be changed for bridle launch operations. The Nimitz class carrier were all built with the Mk2 NGL system with the older carriers being retrofitted during yard overhaul periods. ED modeled the MK2 NGL correctly on the new carriers in DCS.

 Heatblur only modeled half of the Mk1 NGL sytem. The Approach Ramp was modeled but not the Deck Ramp. Picture on left shows Mk1 NGL with both the Approach Ramp and Deck Ramp, but the shuttle has not yet been 

retracted into it.

The picture from the game shows shuttle in battery position but the Deck Ramp is missing.F-14 on Forrestal Cat 4 with launch bar in the retracted shuttle, in tension and ready for launch. The 4 green shirts are standing near Mk1 NGL Approach Ramp and Deck Ramp which have been removed from Cat 3 in readiness for recovery operations. The green shirt to the far right is standing near the cover which is placed over the Cat 3 shuttle to protected aircraft tires from injury during recovery operations.

The catapult slot was also modeled going too far aft. It should stop just aft of the shuttle whin its at the battery position near the nose gear launch location. Another slot starts aft of the NGL location and goes to about where Heatblur ended it in their model. This slot housed the holdback cleat which was used to attach the holdback unit specific to each type of aircraft, used during bridle launch operations.

Heatblur did correctly model the Bridle arresting guides that run parallel to the catapult slot down the entire cat length. I’d love to see Heatblur fixed these issues in future updates. And maybe Heatblur or ED could model the Bridle launch system to include hook up men attaching A-4’s along with future planes like F-8 Crusaders and RA-5 Vigilantes.

The following link is for the Aviation Boatswain Mates manual that describes the NGL system (pdf pages 119 thru 127). See Fig. 4-33 for the holdback cleat and Fig. 5-13 for the deck ramp and Fig. 5-15 for NGL general arrangement. Bridle Arrestment system descriptions starts at pdf page 110.

Link: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED109344.pdf

 

 

[Top Jockey]

38 minutes ago, Bridle Runner said:

The Forrestal is modeled exceptionally well with exception to the aft area of each catapult. There are several inaccuracies in catapult launching area. The Mk1 Nose Gear Launch (NGL) system was introduced on December 19, 1962 when an E-2 Hawkeye and an A-6 Intruder were the first planes launched from the U.S.S. Enterprise using the new nose tow gear. This system was in place on the Forrestal until the ‘89-90 time period when it was replaced by the Mk2 NGL system. The Mk1 NGL system was mounted above deck and had to be removed when bridle launch planes were launched and prior to recovery operations on catapult 3. The Mk2 NGL system was a flush deck system which eliminated the need to remove the above deck equipment, with the only catapult shuttle spreader requiring to be changed for bridle launch operations. The Nimitz class carrier were all built with the Mk2 NGL system with the older carriers being retrofitted during yard overhaul periods. ED modeled the MK2 NGL correctly on the new carriers in DCS.

 Heatblur only modeled half of the Mk1 NGL sytem. The Approach Ramp was modeled but not the Deck Ramp. Picture on left shows Mk1 NGL with both the Approach Ramp and Deck Ramp, but the shuttle has not yet been 

retracted into it.

The picture from the game shows shuttle in battery position but the Deck Ramp is missing.F-14 on Forrestal Cat 4 with launch bar in the retracted shuttle, in tension and ready for launch. The 4 green shirts are standing near Mk1 NGL Approach Ramp and Deck Ramp which have been removed from Cat 3 in readiness for recovery operations. The green shirt to the far right is standing near the cover which is placed over the Cat 3 shuttle to protected aircraft tires from injury during recovery operations.

The catapult slot was also modeled going too far aft. It should stop just aft of the shuttle whin its at the battery position near the nose gear launch location. Another slot starts aft of the NGL location and goes to about where Heatblur ended it in their model. This slot housed the holdback cleat which was used to attach the holdback unit specific to each type of aircraft, used during bridle launch operations.

Heatblur did correctly model the Bridle arresting guides that run parallel to the catapult slot down the entire cat length. I’d love to see Heatblur fixed these issues in future updates. And maybe Heatblur or ED could model the Bridle launch system to include hook up men attaching A-4’s along with future planes like F-8 Crusaders and RA-5 Vigilantes.

The following link is for the Aviation Boatswain Mates manual that describes the NGL system (pdf pages 119 thru 127). See Fig. 4-33 for the holdback cleat and Fig. 5-13 for the deck ramp and Fig. 5-15 for NGL general arrangement. Bridle Arrestment system descriptions starts at pdf page 110.

...

 

 

 

Hello,

Thank you for the insight, so if I understood it; does it mean that the Cat 3 isn't supposed to be working for launch operations ?

So, in DCS's CV-59 Forrestal the Cat 3 implementation is correct as is ?

[Bridle Runner]

Cat 3 can be used for both bridle and Nose Gear launch operations. The Mk1 NGL gear just had to be installed for nose towed aircraft. That photo shows probably the last launch of the cycle. They removed the NGL equipment from Cat 3 and placed the protective cover in preparation for the recovery about to take place. That's why they implemented the improved flush deck Mk2 NGL system on the new carriers and retrofitted the older ones to eliminate this labor instensive operartion. If you notice in the photo the deck ramp is on a cart and had to be moved and stored in a safe location.  I believe the DCS implementation is correct as far as launching aircraft is concerned, they just failed to model the deck ramp ( the equipment on the cart). Now during landing operations all this equipment should be removed from Cat 3 and the protective cover installed.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Bridle Runner

[Top Jockey]

3 minutes ago, Bridle Runner said:

Cat 3 can be used for both bridle and Nose Gear launch operations. The Mk1 NGL gear just had to be installed for nose towed aircraft. That photo shows probably the last launch of the cycle. They removed the NGL equipment from Cat 3 and placed the protective cover in preparation for the recovery about to take place. That's why they implemented the improved flush deck Mk2 NGL system on the new carriers and retrofitted the older ones to eliminate this labor instensive operartion. If you notice in the photo the deck ramp is on a cart and had to be moved and stored in a safe location. 

 

Thank you for your time.

So my doubt still persists: in DCS there must be a bug as some of us can not make the aircraft's launch bar connect with the Cat 3 shuttle, or are we forgeting any extra procedure specific for Cat 3 ?

[Top Jockey]

On 10/27/2021 at 7:45 PM, Top Jockey said:

Edited missions (mostly at night / bad weather) of the Case 1 Recovery with the Forrestal, did cause permanent freezes on my PC for 3 times already.

(No ctrl + alt + delete, or other key combos do work.)

 

Just to report, this does still happen sometimes when starting the Forrestal missions; either Instant Action or Saved from mission editor.

 

(After pressing the green " fly" button at the last briefing window, the F-14 cockpit does appear but it all gets freezed without any possibility to exit mission, the game or return to windows.)

[draconus]

22 minutes ago, Top Jockey said:

 

Just to report, this does still happen sometimes when starting the Forrestal missions; either Instant Action or Saved from mission editor.

 

(After pressing the green " fly" button at the last briefing window, the F-14 cockpit does appear but it all gets freezed without any possibility to exit mission, the game or return to windows.)

Always best to upload your dcs.log in such cases and make a new thread - are you sure it is Forrestal related?

[Top Jockey]

1 minute ago, draconus said:

Always best to upload your dcs.log in such cases and make a new thread - are you sure it is Forrestal related?

Hello,

It only happens (frequently at the least) if I recal correctly, since the last open beta updates when the Forrestal came out, and I don't remember it happening at missions with John Stennis Carrier.

 

Maybe it is coincident with the last heavy performance hits from last updates, people are reporting in the forum.

Should I open a new thread, or put the dcs.log file here ?

[draconus]

40 minutes ago, Top Jockey said:

Should I open a new thread, or put the dcs.log file here ?

I suggest making new thread. I have some CTD and BS lately but can't blame any particular module yet.

[Top Jockey]

57 minutes ago, draconus said:

I suggest making new thread. I have some CTD and BS lately but can't blame any particular module yet.

 

Ok I'll post a new thread with the dcs.log file, in the DCS 2.7 > Bugs & problems > Game crash sub-forum.

Thank you.

 

edit:

Wait a minute... at that sub-forum BIGNEWY mentions to users remove all unofficial mods, before reporting a crash (freeze in my situation).

And i do have some mods:

- pilot logbook changes to allow for US Navy ranks, insignias, medals, squadrons, etc (from @Home Fries);

- better runway visibility and definition for the CV-59 Forrestal runway;

- several aircraft skins for different jets.

 

Is it possible the mod for the Forrestal might be the culprit ?

(curiously NONE of the files the mod changed on the Forrestal's texture folder appeared at the cleanup process...)

Edited November 4, 2021 by Top Jockey

[fagulha]

1 hour ago, Top Jockey said:

 

Ok I'll post a new thread with the dcs.log file, in the DCS 2.7 > Bugs & problems > Game crash sub-forum.

Thank you.

 

edit:

Wait a minute... at that sub-forum BIGNEWY mentions to users remove all unofficial mods, before reporting a crash (freeze in my situation).

And i do have some mods:

- pilot logbook changes to allow for US Navy ranks, insignias, medals, squadrons, etc (from @Home Fries);

- better runway visibility and definition for the CV-59 Forrestal runway;

- several aircraft skins for different jets.

 

Is it possible the mod for the Forrestal might be the culprit ?

(curiously NONE of the files the mod changed on the Forrestal's texture folder appeared at the cleanup process...)

 

There are no mods for the Forrestal. The deck liverie for the Forrestal didn´t appeared at cleanup process probably because it´s saved in SavedGames folder and that´s why we save there mods, files, scripts, so they don´t be overwritten each update/restore/cleanup.

When i encounter a problem the first thing i do it´s to uninstall/disable all of my mods and see if the problem persists, and if not, i can add mods one by one to find the culprit.

So, try without any mods (i doubt the Forrestal´s texture do any harm because it doesn´t mess with core files) and see if the problem persists please.

[Top Jockey]

11 minutes ago, fagulha said:

There are no mods for the Forrestal. The deck liverie for the Forrestal didn´t appeared at cleanup process probably because it´s saved in SavedGames folder and that´s why we save there mods, files, scripts, so they don´t be overwritten each update/restore/cleanup.

When i encounter a problem the first thing i do it´s to uninstall/disable all of my mods and see if the problem persists, and if not, i can add mods one by one to find the culprit.

So, try without any mods (i doubt the Forrestal´s texture do any harm because it doesn´t mess with core files) and see if the problem persists please.

 

Hello,

SavedGames folder ?

(I also know what folder saved games is, but i believe I installed the files at the "core" folder...)

 

...so it seems I've installed it on the wrong folder right from the start :

C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\CoreMods\aircraft\F14\Textures\Forrestal

 

Could this be the problem causing the freeze?

Because all the deck liverie textures appeared flawlessly...

Edited November 4, 2021 by Top Jockey

[fagulha]

27 minutes ago, Top Jockey said:

 

Hello,

SavedGames folder ?

(I also know what folder saved games is, but i believe I installed the files at the "core" folder...)

 

...so it seems I've installed it on the wrong folder right from the start :

C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\CoreMods\aircraft\F14\Textures\Forrestal

 

Could this be the problem causing the freeze?

Because all the deck liverie textures appeared flawlessly...

 

You shouldn´t install any mods and liveries directly in Main/Core DCS folder, all mods/liveries/textures and scripts go to DCS Savedgames folder.

My path: F:\Users\YOURUSERNAME HERE\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Liveries\Forrestal\Forrestal Clear Deck

This way you can choose the liverie of the Forrestal in the Mission Editor.

(in your case it will be in drive C:\ as default but i changed mine)

 

If the Liveries folder does not exist create like the path shown above.

Mods go to Mods folder inside savedgames DCS folder (again, if not exist create Mods folder).

You have some examples below how i have things installed. Hope it helps

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by fagulha

[Top Jockey]

29 minutes ago, fagulha said:

You shouldn´t install any mods and liveries directly in Main/Core DCS folder, all mods/liveries/textures and scripts go to DCS Savedgames folder.

My path: F:\Users\YOURUSERNAME HERE\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Liveries\Forrestal\Forrestal Clear Deck

This way you can choose the liverie of the Forrestal in the Mission Editor.

(in your case it will be in drive C:\ as default but i changed mine)

 

If the Liveries folder does not exist create like the path shown above.

Mods go to Mods folder inside savedgames DCS folder (again, if not exist create Mods folder).

You have some examples below how i have things installed. Hope it helps

 

 

 

Thank you!

Almost always installed any kind of mods there, and looking carefully at it, it might be the cause of the problems...

(However, I believe some of the mods readme files point to install them the core folders...)

 

Is it possible to also use the logbook improvements in the SavedGames folder ?

 

I've cleaned everything now, and will latter begin to try adding the mods at the SavedGames as you instruct - thank you for your time!

Edited November 4, 2021 by Top Jockey

[fagulha]

47 minutes ago, Top Jockey said:

Thank you!

Almost always installed any kind of mods there, and looking carefully at it, it might be the cause of the problems...

(However, I believe some of the mods readme files point to install them the core folders...)

 

Is it possible to also use the logbook improvements in the SavedGames folder ?

 

I've cleaned everything now, and will latter begin to try adding the mods at the SavedGames as you instruct - thank you for your time!

 

No prob, glad i could help in some way.

 

About mods using core folder, you need to install OVgme to use these kind of mods (in that case the loogbook mod). This way you can enable/disable mods in a click when need testing without mods, or update, cleanup etc.

download OVgme and follow instructions, any question please say so and i, or others, will try to help for sure.

 

I leave some examples how i have the OVgme set up, you need to create a folder inside DCS savedgames named _OVGME Mods and then put all the mods that use core folder there. You can use OVgme also for "common" mods that don´t use core files but i only use it for mods that use core folder of DCS.

Edited November 4, 2021 by fagulha

[Nealius]

3 hours ago, m4ti140 said:

I can't get AI wingmen F-14s to launch from Forrestal, they just get stuck on parking and never move.

EDIT: Upon further investigation, it seems that wingman can only take off from cat 1, and will refuse to go to any other cat, even if cat 1 is blocked with static aircraft. They will also ram the player lead as soon as the player starts taxiing to cat 2.

 

Try a 1 second delay on AI spawns. At most only allow them to use the forward two Sixpac spots. The aft two Sixpac spots get jammed up. The only aircraft that will use the waist cats are ones spawned on the aft elevators, so if you block any of the bow cats you’ll need to block the forward elevator too, and make sure no AI spawn on the Sixpac. 

[Baz000]

That is an unofficial mod aircraft, can you please use for example another 2 F-14s instead behind them and see if the same situation exists?

[gulredrel]

Thanks for the Forrestal, great addition to the game. Now I need a proper official carrier trainer. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by gulredrel

[Uxi]

For Forrestal would need to be a TA-4J or a T-2 Buckeye maybe.  Would be nice to see the former perhaps a fork from the A-4E project.

[Baz000]

A 3rd party developer did scrap idea of doing a T-2 a long time ago

[joey45]

1 hour ago, Baz000 said:

A 3rd party developer did scrap idea of doing a T-2 a long time ago

I believe it was RB.

[Nealius]

10 hours ago, m4ti140 said:

I can't do that for player's flight.

You should be able to. It will just say "player flight delayed to start." Another option is to set as client, and choose a slot after the mission as run for ~1 second. 

I really despise how ED set up the Sixpac spawns. The location screws up AI taxi logic and there's no way to avoid spawning on the Sixpac unless you delay your spawn.

Something is definitely broke with the aft two Sixpac spawn points. With 6 Tomcat AI: 4 on Sixpac 2 on Elev1, only three are able to taxi and launch. The 2 Tomcats on the aft Sixpac don't move, trapping one of the Elev1 Tomcats.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Nealius

[Nealius]

What's the trick to hookup up at Cat3? Cats 1 and 2 are easy. Cat 3 doesn't want to hook me up even in a Hornet, but will happily hook up AI.

[Top Jockey]

6 hours ago, Nealius said:

What's the trick to hookup up at Cat3? Cats 1 and 2 are easy. Cat 3 doesn't want to hook me up even in a Hornet, but will happily hook up AI.

 

So far it appears to be a bug...

[Nealius]

Well that's disappointing. At least the AI can use it.

Is the burble modeled only for the Tomcat, or for everything? I just did my first Hornet trap and had a slight float right about where one would expect the updraft, then a bit of a sink as I was nearing the ramp. Felt like burble but maybe placebo? 

[fagulha]

5 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Well that's disappointing. At least the AI can use it.

Is the burble modeled only for the Tomcat, or for everything? I just did my first Hornet trap and had a slight float right about where one would expect the updraft, then a bit of a sink as I was nearing the ramp. Felt like burble but maybe placebo? 

Afaik it´s only for the Tomcat at the moment.