Engine Lockout

[heloguy]

I'm not a 64 guy, but I know what lockout is.  I see the lockout label on the power levers.  Will this function as it does in the actual aircraft?

[kgillers3]

i personally hope so lol  

[FalcoGer]

If you put the throttle lever(s) to lockout, you disengage the automatic throttle (set when set to fly detent). This is done when you need more torque (in an emergency) but for some reason the aircraft won't let you have it or if the system malfunctions. You are then responsible for managing the throttle.

I believe putting it back in idle and then back to fly gives you auto throttle again.

[heloguy]

35 minutes ago, FalcoGer said:

If you put the throttle lever(s) to lockout, you disengage the automatic throttle (set when set to fly detent). This is done when you need more torque (in an emergency) but for some reason the aircraft won't let you have it or if the system malfunctions. You are then responsible for managing the throttle.

I believe putting it back in idle and then back to fly gives you auto throttle again.

That's the way I understand it.  Just wondering if it will be modeled in DCS.

[Raptor9]

5 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

This is done when you need more torque (in an emergency) but for some reason the aircraft won't let you have it

If the aircraft won't let you have it there are good reasons. Lockout is only used to manually regulate engine RPM if the electronic engine control fails in this task, it isn't used for "more power". That's a good way to lose the engine altogether and put yourself into a single-engine condition.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Raptor9

[heloguy]

5 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

If the aircraft won't let you have it there are good reasons. Lockout is only used to manually regulate engine RPM if the electronic engine control fails in this task, it isn't used for "more power". That's a good way to lose the engine altogether and put yourself into a single-engine condition.

 

It's definitely true that you don't want to exceed the aircraft/engine limits in most situations.  If a drooping rotor is in between me being alive, or that engine being torched, though, bill me.

[Raptor9]

47 minutes ago, heloguy said:

It's definitely true that you don't want to exceed the aircraft/engine limits in most situations.  If a drooping rotor is in between me being alive, or that engine being torched, though, bill me.

The thing is, you shove that engine into lockout for "more power", you're likely to overspeed it and cause it to automatically shutdown. So now you'll really be drooping the rotor.

[heloguy]

14 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

The thing is, you shove that engine into lockout for "more power", you're likely to overspeed it and cause it to automatically shutdown. So now you'll really be drooping the rotor.

I’m really talking about the situation where if you just go with the initial drooping rotor, you’re going to crash anyway.  Then, again, bill me if whatever little power it has left is enough to prevent that.  Acknowledge that the main reason for lockout is in case a DECU fails.

[AlphaOneSix]

That's just the thing, it will give you all the power unless the ECU fails, there won't be "a little power left".

[Remco]

When asked I, for one, will tell people lockout is the afterburner, and see how many people I can fool.

Airwolf was a documentary after all.

[doedkoett]

I thought it was for silent mode, like in Blue Thunder.. But I may have confused lockout with the chop button, when I start to think about it.

Like "chop" for silent, "chop chop" for normal use, and "chop chop chop" for air shows, when you want to impress the crowd.

[shagrat]

Am 2.11.2021 um 13:03 schrieb heloguy:

It's definitely true that you don't want to exceed the aircraft/engine limits in most situations.  If a drooping rotor is in between me being alive, or that engine being torched, though, bill me.

The thing is, it doesn't matter, because the engine "limit" or engine RPM is not related to lift or speed in a helicopter. The only thing relevant, is torque vs rotor RPM and more power doesn't necessarily mean more rotor RPM. It can easily get to more power = exceed torque limit and destroy the rotor transmission, which would be bad... As in worse than a drooping rotor.

Lockout would simply have you manage engine RPM including, torque and rotor RPM, so now you need to do the job of the ECU in addition to managing just torque limits.

[heloguy]

13 hours ago, shagrat said:

more power doesn't necessarily mean more rotor RPM

This is true.  In normal operations.  But if you have put yourself in a situation where your rotor is drooping, and collective reduction is not an option, manual operation of the power levers (lockout) may be the only option to make the situation survivable.  Every engine is different.  The limits exist so manufacturers can guarantee time before overhaul (TBO).  Not because if you exceed them you’ll have an immediate failure.  On the other hand, if you fly around with the engines in lockout, power levers maxed, rotor RPM through the roof, not only are you doing it wrong, but no one will be surprised when you do smoke an engine, or seize a transmission.

[shagrat]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb heloguy:

This is true.  In normal operations.  But if you have put yourself in a situation where your rotor is drooping, and collective reduction is not an option, manual operation of the power levers (lockout) may be the only option to make the situation survivable.  Every engine is different.  The limits exist so manufacturers can guarantee time before overhaul (TBO).  Not because if you exceed them you’ll have an immediate failure.  On the other hand, if you fly around with the engines in lockout, power levers maxed, rotor RPM through the roof, not only are you doing it wrong, but no one will be surprised when you do smoke an engine, or seize a transmission.

You missed the point. More power from the engine means more force on the drive/rotorshaft, as in the rotor separates from the aircraft...

Too much engine power at a certain rotor RPM does not speed up the rotor, but breaks it, that's what the torque gauge is showing.

If at any phase in flight or even when starting the engine you exceed the torque limits beyond the safety margins the shaft/transmission will break, instead of speeding up the rotor.

[heloguy]

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

You missed the point.

No, I didn't.  You did.  As a helicopter pilot for 15 years, I understand what the limits in the book mean.  I also understand that in an emergency, you do what you need to do to ensure crew survival.  The limits in the book protect components from failure before their scheduled time before overhaul.  They aren't the point of failure.  There is a safety margin built in by those limits.  If you exceed them during normal operations, you'll probably be fired.  If you exceed them in an emergency, you will be investigated, and potentially fired.  But if you saved a crew from death, or an airframe from destruction, you probably did just fine.

[Remco]

1 hour ago, heloguy said:

No, I didn't.  You did.  As a helicopter pilot for 15 years, I understand what the limits in the book mean.  I also understand that in an emergency, you do what you need to do to ensure crew survival.  The limits in the book protect components from failure before their scheduled time before overhaul.  They aren't the point of failure.  There is a safety margin built in by those limits.  If you exceed them during normal operations, you'll probably be fired.  If you exceed them in an emergency, you will be investigated, and potentially fired.  But if you saved a crew from death, or an airframe from destruction, you probably did just fine.

I think the point he is making is there is not a single emergency procedure in which we, at least in the Apache, would put the power levers into lockout to "get more power". It just is not a go to response in any situation whatsoever.

[shagrat]

vor einer Stunde schrieb heloguy:

No, I didn't.  You did.  As a helicopter pilot for 15 years, I understand what the limits in the book mean.  I also understand that in an emergency, you do what you need to do to ensure crew survival.  The limits in the book protect components from failure before their scheduled time before overhaul.  They aren't the point of failure.  There is a safety margin built in by those limits.  If you exceed them during normal operations, you'll probably be fired.  If you exceed them in an emergency, you will be investigated, and potentially fired.  But if you saved a crew from death, or an airframe from destruction, you probably did just fine.

Well, I can just point out what an Apache Pilot wrote and my knowledge how a transmission works. Torque is the limiting factor. The limit for the torque usually has a safety margin, to prevent the transmission to break immediately, if bad things happen, but once you exceed the safety margin you will damage the transmission or other part in the chain.

To put more power/force (from the engine) it is not the engine limitation or worrying about damaging the engine, but the force working against the rotor (drag) creating tremendous torque on the whole transmission/driveshaft/rotorhead. And I may be no helicopter pilot, but it seems damaging/breaking that is way worse than a damaged engine.

In lockout you will have the same engine power available that the ECU usually manages for you to keep the optimum RPM to transfer the right amount of power to the rotor. The difference is you now need to manage collective and throttle, watch engine RPM, torque and rotor RPM.

I can't see any advantage in the engine putting out more power, than the transmission can handle... but it is a simulation, so no one dies. You can use lockout as much as you want.

 

[kgillers3]

I enjoy these speculations on what lockout does and how it helps 

[Remco]

5 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

I enjoy these speculations on what lockout does and how it helps 

 

[kgillers3]

17 minutes ago, Remco said:

 

@Remco you have the flight controls. Prepare to go to light speed

[Sarge55]

Shouldn’t that be ludicrous speed?

[AlphaOneSix]

We've gone plaid!

[Sarge55]

[kgillers3]

1 hour ago, Sarge55 said:

Shouldn’t that be ludicrous speed?

Lol, That’s what peeps are going to think about their np section before it shuts down the first time they do lockout

Edited November 4, 2021 by kgillers3

[gnomechild]

Sounds like the true purpose of the lockout is for maintaining control when the auto control becomes too self aware. Real Apache pilots won't say it because it's classified but there's actually nobody in the front seat. It's always been George9000