grafspee Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) Straight from P-51D manual, good luck doing that in DCS haha. Cooling in DCS is broken, when taking off P-51 barely goes off with out overheating, just imagine sits stationary for whole 1 min with throttle wide open. They forgot to add in to manual, to have fire track ready so after spark plugs clean out, they can cool down molten engine. This mean that at 100mph you definitely can have throttle wide open for more then 1 min if it is possible to run engine 1 min stationary wide open. Edited February 16, 2022 by grafspee 5 System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doughguy Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 not sure how to test this in dcs as even with breaks youd nose over past 35 mp and 3000 rpm. https://sr-f.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lixma 06 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, grafspee said: Straight from P-51D manual, good luck doing that in DCS haha. Here I let the temps settle for a minute. At 8:01 I run 61" 3000RPM and hit active-pause (just before the plane tips over). Result: Radiator blown in under 30 seconds (audible at 8:01:31) p-51 ground.trk Edited February 16, 2022 by Lixma 06 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reflected Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, Doughguy said: not sure how to test this in dcs as even with breaks youd nose over past 35 mp and 3000 rpm. Check my track 1 Facebook Instagram YouTube Discord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doughguy Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) vor 2 Minuten schrieb Lixma 06: Here I let the temps settle for a minute. At 8:01 I run 61" 3000RPM and hit active-pause (just before the plane tips over). Result: Radiator blown in under 30 seconds. p-51 ground.trk 496 kB · 0 Downloads cooling flaps open? cant view track atm. Edited February 16, 2022 by Doughguy https://sr-f.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Doughguy said: not sure how to test this in dcs as even with breaks youd nose over past 35 mp and 3000 rpm. So run 40 inch it will still overheat before 1 min mark Edited February 16, 2022 by grafspee 1 System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lixma 06 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Doughguy said: cooling flaps open? The switches were in 'Auto' and I wouldn't expect it to make any difference - but just to make sure (Science™) I ran it again with both oil & coolant shutters wide open. No real difference - maybe 5 seconds extra before it blows at 8:01:41 p-51 ground 2.trk Edited February 16, 2022 by Lixma 06 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Lixma 06 said: The switches were in 'Auto' and I wouldn't expect it to make any difference - but just to make sure (Science™) I ran it again with both oil & coolant shutters wide open. No real difference - maybe 5 seconds extra before radiator blows. Exactly opening radiator shutters only gives couple second buffer, but it does not change overall cooling, because Auto mode open cooling shutters full when needed, what DCS P-51 miss is properly working cooling system. And small correction you blow motor in 30s not radiator, radiator will survive, it has emergency release valve which opens when coolant pressure exceed certain level which corresponds to temp higher then 121C, from this point valve will vent coolant to prevent radiator damage. Your video is perfect, it shows that modeling is way off. After 15 sec of max power, coolant temp is red lined, provided that you started up with 60C it would be much less when starting from operating temp. Edited February 16, 2022 by grafspee 2 System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lixma 06 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 6 minutes ago, grafspee said: And small correction you blow motor in 30s not radiator, radiator will survive, it has emergency release valve which opens when coolant pressure exceed certain level which corresponds to temp higher then 121C, from this point valve will vent coolant to prevent radiator damage. Ah, OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted February 16, 2022 ED Team Share Posted February 16, 2022 Runup limits per Nick for their P-51s are 33in or 3000 RPM on the ground. I would warn that using active pause for such tests can yield inaccurate results. Certain things can work improperly with active pause on, such as water and fuel fuel flow, as well as air flow. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reflected Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 As you can see in my track above, you can open the throttle fully without active pause. If you do it slowly, the plane won't nose over for some reason just turn around in circles. Facebook Instagram YouTube Discord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted February 17, 2022 ED Team Share Posted February 17, 2022 Why would I open the throttle full on the ground is my issue still, I, at this point, don't understand where you are going or what you want, beyond changes coming which may affect this somewhat, the aircraft operated in the air as expected, your only proof bring they don't tell you to not hold the throttle open full in a stall turn, they also don't tell you to fly into a mountain. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, NineLine said: Why would I open the throttle full on the ground is my issue still, I, at this point, don't understand where you are going or what you want, beyond changes coming which may affect this somewhat, the aircraft operated in the air as expected, your only proof bring they don't tell you to not hold the throttle open full in a stall turn, they also don't tell you to fly into a mountain. P-51 manual says why you would open on the ground. You do not need 61' in DCS you can go for 40' and engine will cook. So they don't tell to hold throttle full at stall or fly in to mountain but they tell you that 1 min run up at 61" in order to clean engine is necessary after long ground operations and your reaction is to nah we just skip this nothing of importance for us. We can't strap tail to the ground and you advice to not use active pause, but you know it very well that if that option was in DCS result would be exact the same, anyway 40' will cook engine before 1min mark too, not need to go for 61 to proof that this is wrong. Anyway im done here. Edited February 17, 2022 by grafspee 2 System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted February 17, 2022 ED Team Share Posted February 17, 2022 19 minutes ago, grafspee said: So they don't tell to hold throttle full at stall or fly in to mountain but they tell you that 1 min run up at 61" in order to clean engine is necessary after long ground operations and your reaction is to nah we just skip this nothing of importance for us. I hardly skipped it, I stated what a normal runup for the P-51s owned and flown my Nick Grey. I also know you are not cleaning the plugs, in fact you get new plugs with each start of the P-51 in DCS, what does that say? Do brand new clean plugs run hotter than fowled ones? Could that be the difference? So why are you cleaning plugs when you know the plugs are brand new? I believe that 33/3000 would be the most you would want on a clean engine. You want to do something that is not simulated in DCS. Sorry again, I am not ignoring you, I have tried very hard to see the issue, but you have shown me none beyond it should work that way because its not written in the manual or there is a step in the manual for a issue that is not simulated in our P-51. But anyways, you said you were done, I have seen nothing to invoke any change here. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) 47 minutes ago, NineLine said: I hardly skipped it, I stated what a normal runup for the P-51s owned and flown my Nick Grey. I also know you are not cleaning the plugs, in fact you get new plugs with each start of the P-51 in DCS, what does that say? Do brand new clean plugs run hotter than fowled ones? Could that be the difference? So why are you cleaning plugs when you know the plugs are brand new? I believe that 33/3000 would be the most you would want on a clean engine. You want to do something that is not simulated in DCS. Sorry again, I am not ignoring you, I have tried very hard to see the issue, but you have shown me none beyond it should work that way because its not written in the manual or there is a step in the manual for a issue that is not simulated in our P-51. But anyways, you said you were done, I have seen nothing to invoke any change here. You still focusing on wrong thing, i dont care about plugs. Engine overheats too fast. And proof is in p51 manual and i dont care how modern p51 are operated, you said that many times that dcs models ww2 era p51. So when manual says thar full power runup is possible it is and thinking about why you want or dont want to do id does not change a thing. And if you ever try p51 in dcs on the ground you would know that 3000 is avilable at 43', 33' wont give 3000. I do agree that many things are not modeled or modeled wrong Edited February 17, 2022 by grafspee System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted February 17, 2022 ED Team Share Posted February 17, 2022 I know you don't care about plugs, hence the disconnect we are having now. And I am well aware that 33 doesn't get 3000, point being they don't run up full power unless they are 'deleading the plugs', isn't that what your note from the manual said? The reason I don't do a full power run up it's obvious if you ever did one, and you apparently don't care about my warning about active pause. You want to prove one thing and ignore another. I can't help you with this attitude. Sorry. Unless you have something more than assumptions or procedures for fouled plugs I suggest you fly the aircraft within the limits and see what the new cooling system brings. Based on your last post, I suggest a refresh on the rules as well. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 16 minutes ago, NineLine said: I know you don't care about plugs, hence the disconnect we are having now. And I am well aware that 33 doesn't get 3000, point being they don't run up full power unless they are 'deleading the plugs', isn't that what your note from the manual said? The reason I don't do a full power run up it's obvious if you ever did one, and you apparently don't care about my warning about active pause. You want to prove one thing and ignore another. I can't help you with this attitude. Sorry. Unless you have something more than assumptions or procedures for fouled plugs I suggest you fly the aircraft within the limits and see what the new cooling system brings. Based on your last post, I suggest a refresh on the rules as well. Yes they run up engine full power in case spark plug fouling and they blow engine in 30sec. So they get new engine and sparks are cleared. I start to understand this. Did i say that i used actve pause, no i did not. But i managed to get 45' and engine blows up too, so i get new sparks when i reslot. Got it. System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razo+r Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) Grafspee, maybe you should simplify it for Nineline: Manual says full run up should be done if certain conditions are met, but a full run up in DCS is not possible. Btw Nineline, you also go under the assumption everyone respawns after landing. Get rid of that assumption. Some simply do not do that. But that is not the topic of it so lets get back to overheating. Edited February 17, 2022 by razo+r 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lixma 06 Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, NineLine said: point being they don't run up full power unless they are 'deleading the plugs', isn't that what your note from the manual said? The P-51 manual states that to de-lead the plugs (or annoy the neighbours, or impress one's girlfriend) the engine should be run up at 61" & 3000rpm for one minute prior to take-off. The unstated, but obvious conclusion, is that the P-51 can safely run at 61" 3000rpm at 0mph for at least 60 seconds without any risk - if it was likely to damage the aircraft they wouldn't recommend it; especially not prior to take-off. In contrast our P-51 overheats and explodes within 30 seconds. Now to slay the 'active pause' demon. If anyone else wants to try this you just need to pull full deflection on the elevator, full brakes, and very gently increase the MAP. I couldn't stop it rotating but it doesn't matter. Result: Exactly the same; in fact the engine was blown before I could reach 61". 1 hour ago, grafspee said: So they get new engine and sparks are cleared. I start to understand this. LOL. I am reminded of Baldrick from Blackadder, who famously solved the problem of his mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head. p-51 ground no ac-pause.trk Edited February 17, 2022 by Lixma 06 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reflected Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, Lixma 06 said: The unstated, but obvious conclusion, is that the P-51 can safely run at 61" 3000rpm at 0mph for at least 60 seconds without any risk - if it was likely to damage the aircraft they wouldn't recommend it; especially not prior to take-off. In contrast our P-51 overheats and explodes within 30 seconds. My findings exactly. Here's another video. No Active Pause. Don't ask me why the aircraft started spinning instead of nosing over. Different matter. The engine got destroyed 35 seconds after opening the throttle from idle, and 20 seconds from reaching 61" MP. 1 2 Facebook Instagram YouTube Discord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
some1 Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, NineLine said: I hardly skipped it, I stated what a normal runup for the P-51s owned and flown my Nick Grey. The currently imposed limits when running decades old parts in an airframe worth millions during peacetime should not even be a factor in this discussion. Two different worlds, literally. They don't fly them at WEP any more either. Edited February 17, 2022 by some1 3 1 Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, some1 said: The currently imposed limits when running decades old parts in an airframe worth millions during peacetime should not even be a factor in this discussion. Two different worlds, literally. They don't fly them at WEP any more either. Exactly and fact that now no one fly wep is no proof that in war time they did not too. 1 System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted February 17, 2022 ED Team Share Posted February 17, 2022 All I can say is wait for the new cooling system and maybe you guys will be able to enjoy a full engine run up. One last time, if you don't want to overheat the engine as it is now, fly it properly to the gauges and listed limits. Why you need to do a run up on the ground I am not sure. I will say it again, as everyone wants to skip over it, there is a new cooling system coming. I have said this in so many threads now. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) No one need or want to do full engine run up on the ground, but this is only foothold which we can relay on, in slow speeding overheat problem, like stall turns etc. Edited February 17, 2022 by grafspee System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted February 17, 2022 ED Team Share Posted February 17, 2022 Chances are, even with the new cooling system you will not be able to hold the throttle wide open in a stall turn. This is just a fact of life, will the new system be more forgiving? I don't know, but at the end of the day, it's not the proper way to fly the aircraft. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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