Thurstmaster is no longer the gold standard for flight simulation.

[Ben Sones]

1 hour ago, Lange_666 said:

Let's take something you can compare, like the steering wheel of a car. Does it has stiction/friction while moving?

 

Definitely not, but the steering assembly on even a budget car costs more than flight sim gear--even the high-end stuff from Realsimulator. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Ben Sones

[sirrah]

8 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I mean none of this really matters, if you are happy with the sticky plastic gimble in a WT then great, maybe yours isn't that bad, even better. My virpil does not stick at all and I like that.

The stiction on my Warthog indeed is negligible, so I'm probably just that one lucky person and perhaps that's why I don't really understand all the "fuzz" around the stiction issues and people messing with all kinds of expensive gels to make it less sticky. As stated before, I didn't want to start an argument on if the Warthog often suffers from stiction, I believe you guys. I merely wondered about this phenomena in real life aircraft, but I suppose you're right and the two can't be compared

[Baldrick33]

7 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

 

The statement was if the stiction experienced on a WT was realistic. It isn't really the same thing as force feed back . Force feedback is still not anything other than simulated and software/wire driven! I mean none of this really matters, if you are happy with the sticky plastic gimble in a WT then great, maybe yours isn't that bad, even better. My virpil does not stick at all and I like that.

The point about force feedback was that in sim racing the hardware is aiming to simulate the feeling of steering of the real car, with a device that works somewhat differently from the real thing which is mechanical. It isn't unreasonable to believe that a manufacturer would make a joystick which aims to replicate the feel of a non fly by wire plane. How successful they may depend on cost of course.

It is like motion simulators that use motors to simulate all manner of mechanical devices and air flow over surfaces to try to feel close to the thing it is simulating.

I think it is a fair question, how does moving a stick in an aircraft which is operating mechanical devices feel? Is there any resistance from these parts which make it different from a fly by wire stick which is disconnected from the controls in terms of feel. My belief is they would be very well engineered and smooth (even if physically hard under certain conditions to move)

[Hoirtel]

3 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

The point about force feedback was that in sim racing the hardware is aiming to simulate the feeling of steering of the real car, with a device that works somewhat differently from the real thing which is mechanical. It isn't unreasonable to believe that a manufacturer would make a joystick which aims to replicate the feel of a non fly by wire plane. How successful they may depend on cost of course.

It is like motion simulators that use motors to simulate all manner of mechanical devices and air flow over surfaces to try to feel close to the thing it is simulating.

I think it is a fair question, how does moving a stick in an aircraft which is operating mechanical devices feel? Is there any resistance from these parts which make it different from a fly by wire stick which is disconnected from the controls in terms of feel. My belief is they would be very well engineered and smooth (even if physically hard under certain conditions to move)

Its a fair question for sure. Just a different one.

[edmuss]

47 minutes ago, sirrah said:

The stiction on my Warthog indeed is negligible

Same here, it's buttery smooth and has never had any stiction issues.  With the 3" extension the spring is just about strong enough to overcome the weight of the handle and gently return it to centre, I have greased it once about 8 years ago with some nice thick grease we use at work (1000 cst but it pales in comparison the nyogel's 28000 cst).  Without the extension it was just as smooth but the centre force made it much harder to balance flying helos accurately.

If money were no object and I were to buy a new setup then a virpil would probably be on the cards but as the warthog is currently just fine and I paid 180 quid for it bundled with physical media for A10C and BS then I'm not going to complain

Edited February 3, 2022 by edmuss

[Bwaze]

Warthog stick bases definitely have various degree of stiction, smoothness and centre "free play" . Some are lucky and have gotten much better feeling units than other.

I had two bases, both with quite a lot of stiction, but were otherwise smooth. I sanded the plastic parts and used Nyogel, but that's quite an invasive procedure, you can easily ruin your base. A friend bought a unit with really gritty feel, but didn't really understand what stiction is until I showed him. He got a refund for that stick, but lost a lot of money for shipping. 

[Baldrick33]

I have been happy with my Warthog, though I have been under no illusion it is the best out there.

Thrustmaster are more of a mainstream vendor that makes a range of race and flight sim products which are reasonably available in most countries. The Warthog and TPR pedals are their top of the range stuff and certainly vastly superior to the entry level kit. The T Flight range is definitely budget but it is good to have the options. I think the Warthog's reputation as "premium" is in relation to the typical kit you can buy in shops or mainstream online vendors, be it Thrustmaster's own range or Logitech and lesser know brands.

The higher end flight sim vendors kit typically has to be imported and often with long lead times. This is just the nature of these companies providing for a very small niche market. It isn't really until you get into flight sims you learn about them.

[Hotdognz]

Its a funny thing, I just got a Virpril CM3 last week, replaced my Warthog throttle (5 years no issues), today after 5 days of continued use I moved back to the Warthog throttle, why you ask, the Virpril was beautifully made the throttle motion was lovely, the indent system was very smart, but the button and hat positions sucked, they are all over the place, you have to move your hand around so much on the Virpil to access the hats and out of way buttons and rotaries it was just overload on the workload when flying, the Warthog whilst less buttons is so easy easy to access every thing especially by your thumb 1x5 was hat, brake switch, china hat and boat switch all within easy reach, on the Virpil I had the 5 wat hat with large rotary by my thumb and then had to move my hand back to reach the 2 other 5 way hats, plus single push button, I could reach the 2 other puch buttons on t hat side ok though.

Plus I found I got really bad hand and wrist fatigue with the Virpil, something I never got on the Warthog, after flying a few hrs I had had enough and also walked away with tired hands, this never happened with the Warthog so im back with it.

[_Hoss]

The F-16EX does not look very ergonomic either. I'll stick with the TMWH set up I have, it's a good eleven years old. It may not be the gold standard any more, but it works perfectly. My Tacoma is 16 years old, looks great, runs great, it was paid for the day I bought it, and like my HOTAS I see no reason to replace it. "Buy what you have no need of and before too long you will sell your necessities" B. Franklin.

Cheers

[Habu_69]

Some historic perspective from a simwar veteran. I bought one of the first Cougar HOTAS sets as an upgrade from the previous "gold standard" TM Pro F-22 and TQS. Believe me, AT THE TIME, Cougar was indeed the gold standard and held that distinction for more than 10 years. Its Foxy software made it the most versatile HOTAS by far. Yes, the gimbals proved to be its Achilles heel and the stick developed excessive center-play over time. Moreover the switch solder connections would occasionally fail and some PCB's would fail with time.

I found a fix to eliminate the center-wobble and became adept at trouble-shooting and repairing the solder connections. I also replaced the gimbals with a force-sensing solution. The Warthog throttle has replaced my Cougar throttle, but I am still using that old original Cougar joystick to this day.

Back in the day Cougar-envy was a real thing.

[Rudel_chw]

12 minutes ago, Habu_69 said:

I found a fix to eliminate the center-wobble

Hi, another Cougar owner here  … can you please elaborate on that fix? 
Thanks 

[Habu_69]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

Hi, another Cougar owner here  … can you please elaborate on that fix? 
Thanks 

The 2 shell halves of the Cougar stick attach to the base shaft with 1 interior screw and 1 long screw through the shell surface. See attached photo at 5. When the screws are tightened the shaft still does not fit snugly against the stick shell halves. Fix is to fashion a tiny shim, with a hole for the screw, and place it between the shaft screw flange and the shell. Voila! snug fit and no wobble. I used an aluminum beverage can for the shim material. Requires some patience and small fingers. Be careful of the fragile wires.

[Sajarov]

Thrustmaster is not the gold standard since 2018? So 4 years ago.
At least better later than never.

All products have quality problems as there is no 100% in quality control ( and in life really), but Thrustmaster warthog is a 12 years old product with a bad gimball design ( or at least not good), made with zamak, a zinc alloy, to deceive customers as we perceive the warhog better than it is due to his metallic construction.

A Design which uses plastic in the gimball and metal in the exterior cannot be the gold standard, at least for the users, it surely is, for the vendors.

Sent from my M2102J20SG using Tapatalk

[Rudel_chw]

38 minutes ago, Habu_69 said:

When the screws are tightened the shaft still does not fit snugly against the stick shell halves

 

Thanks a lot for explainin this to me  ... to be honest, I had never even realized that play that the stick's handle has, on mine it is very minor but now that you mentioned it I can certainly feel it. I tought that you were refering to the gimbals play, as that play is certainly a lot larger than this handle play 

I had gotten used to the gimbal play, but last year I purchased a 10cm extension tube to have better control when flying the Hind and Apache, and that certainly exacerbated the gimbals play      I know I should probably move on to another stick, but I'm so used to Foxy that I don't want to lose it, so I have kind of got used to the gimbal's play.

Cheers.

[Habu_69]

6 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Thanks a lot for explainin this to me  ... to be honest, I had never even realized that play that the stick's handle has, on mine it is very minor but now that you mentioned it I can certainly feel it. 

Yes minor, but I found it annoying nonetheless. YMMV

6 hours ago, Sajarov said:

Thrustmaster is not the gold standard since 2018? So 4 years ago.
At least better later than never.

All products have quality problems as there is no 100% in quality control ( and in life really), but Thrustmaster warthog is a 12 years old product with a bad gimball design ( or at least not good), made with zamak, a zinc alloy, to deceive customers as we perceive the warhog better than it is due to his metallic construction.

A Design which uses plastic in the gimball and metal in the exterior cannot be the gold standard, at least for the users, it surely is, for the vendors.

Guess it depends on the definition of "gold standard". My definition is best available at a given point in time, flawed though it may be.