Force Trim

[RuskyV]

 

On 4/11/2022 at 11:30 PM, Dangerzone said:

I may still be completely misunderstanding you, so if I am - can you please give an example like I have about what steps you think should take place, and what the physical, and DCS inputs would be during those steps so we can better understand your proposal?

Sorry I just don't have the knowledge to provide any meaningful explanation regarding what steps the sim should be taking to interpret inputs I give through my own hardware. My suggestion at the bottom of my last post is my proposal.
 

For easy reference (edited for clarity).

On 4/11/2022 at 1:57 PM, RuskyV said:

My Suggestion:

Would be to have a trim "option" that dose neither of the above, instead when hitting the trim button you can release the stick pressure when ever you like (no freezing)or if needed add in additional pressure and not then have it automatically add in more stick deflection.

[Hoirtel]

@RuskyV

Would be to have a trim "option" that dose neither of the above, instead when hitting the trim button you can release the stick pressure when ever you like (no freezing)or if needed add in additional pressure and not then have it automatically add in more stick deflection.

I'm returning to this tread after being one of the early confused people. Now its so simple, I can't believe I got it wrong. Your above suggestion isn't even possible. If no additional inputs are added, or the stick does not wait for return to center (freezing) then no trimming has been applied. If it trims at an "unknown" later stage after more inputs have been received this is crazy and even worse than trim reset during flight! The whole point of trimming  is you can reduce your workload. You only reduce your workload when your controls are in the center, because you are not compressing the spring.

Anyone still having issues I really would encourage you to fly without trimming, get comfortable then introduce some trimming, stick first. Pedals after (change special options). Trim-center, trim-center, trim-center. Thats all it is. Easy.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Hoirtel

[Caldera]

My take on force trim. 

It works very well I just had to get used to how it worked and currently I have no issues with it except for one. 

The one issue is, if George becomes the pilot then the trim settings will neutral out.  This causes a large bump when I am transferring back to the pilot seat.  Particularly if, as pilot, I have established a OGE hover prior to switching to George.

The trim reset function was just what I needed, because it allows me to fly with the big red controls indicator turned off.

 

Comments:

• Instant
• Instant --> the "none bumpless transfer" gets you at first
• Instant --> never completely lose control even if you forget to re-center the controls  <-- Biggest advantage
• Instant --> works best with many small trim changes
• Instant --> requires a moment of relaxation if you make a large change as things can get wild
• Instant --> it almost always creates small bobbles don't worry about them
• Central
• Central --> provides a very nice "bumpless transfer" for most setting changes
• Central --> easier to go into a trimmed hover more smoothly
• Central --> large changes will not result in wild oscillations  <-- Biggest advantage
• Central --> many crashes have occurred by forgetting to re-center the controls
• Central --> many crashes have occurred by forgetting to re-center the controls
• Central --> many crashes have occurred by forgetting to re-center the controls

 

In either mode, you always have to re-center the controls after a trim change.  That is probably the hardest habit to learn,  but also it gets very habit forming.  Once that habit is learned both modes don't really seem that far apart.

Caldera

[Dangerzone]

On 4/14/2022 at 4:53 AM, RuskyV said:

Sorry I just don't have the knowledge to provide any meaningful explanation regarding what steps the sim should be taking to interpret inputs I give through my own hardware. My suggestion at the bottom of my last post is my proposal.
 

For easy reference (edited for clarity).
 

My Suggestion:

Would be to have a trim "option" that dose neither of the above, instead when hitting the trim button you can release the stick pressure when ever you like (no freezing)or if needed add in additional pressure and not then have it automatically add in more stick deflection.

Thanks for responding. Unfortunately what you're proposing is illogical. (And software only works with logic)   You're effectively asking it to be a mind reader because otherwise there must be a time where control inputs are frozen / ignored to allow to relocating the controls for the trim to take part. The only alternative for that would be for force feedback joysticks.

No freezing means control inputs are recognised, and thus - no trim.

The only other alternatively really is to freeze the controls while trim is depressed, and unfreeze them as soon as trim button is released instead of waiting for you to get back to center to allow greater control.

[RuskyV]

@Dangerzone

I was sure it would be something like this, however if I didn't pose the question I would never known the reason why it was implemented like this in the first place. Always curious!

thanks for being patient, as well as explaining.

Edited April 20, 2022 by RuskyV

[Dozer1606688093]

I found the KA-50 very easy to fly. The trim was just perfect. 

Not sure if the trim in the AH-64 works the same regardless what ever trim option you choose. I just never had a problem trimming with the Kamov. It did exactly what i wanted.

Now i fly the apache without problems, except when i want to land on a FARP with limited space. Then it becomes a bit of a problem. 

Seems like the Apache doesn´t like inputs when you are at low speeds. Then it becomes very twitchy fast, and it can easily result in a crash if you´re not careful. 

We will see... It´s still very much in development and i hope the flight model will change a bit with upcoming patches. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Dozer1606688093

[Caldera]

Hey all,

I am starting to think that this...

 

...is the best way to go.

It has advantages, and reduces the disadvantages of both methods immediately after a trim change is made.

• You never completely lose control.  <-- Big
• If you forget to re-center, you still retain control at all times with the cyclic.  The changes with cyclic are often less and have less impact overall.
• You can make large changes to the pedals and not have things go completely bonkers.  For example, when going from flight to a hover or coming out of a hard sliding turn.

This works very well, even if you do not re-center the pedals immediately.

Caldera

[ebabil]

Is there any way to trim the cyclic without trimming the rudder?

(MsFfb2)

[petsild]

[Caldera]

Ebabil,

53 minutes ago, ebabil said:

Is there any way to trim the cyclic without trimming the rudder?

Yes there is.  Try using this option.  It is the bottom one on the list.

 

The red trim X on the controls monitor will lock in place as per normal, but does not effect force trim.  The actual trim always goes to the pedal input.  I used this method for awhile.  I even had both the pedals and the cyclic force trim essentially turned off at the same time off for awhile.  I use a right hand mouse so I realized that I needed to learn how to trim.  It is still way easier, especially for a hover that it is maintained for a longer period of time, to use force trim.

Petsild,

If only we could all justify a full Brunner kit set-up.

Caldera

Edited April 24, 2022 by Caldera

[MAXsenna]

51 minutes ago, ebabil said:

Is there any way to trim the cyclic without trimming the rudder?

(MsFfb2)

What kind of pedals have you got? 

I have chosen the non sprung and non FFB option under special. 

EDIT: I have the MS FFB2 too, and taken the spring out of my pedals, and have the same settings as @Caldera

Edited April 24, 2022 by MAXsenna

[dawgie79]

Oki, so. I just flew the Apache for a few moments for the first time. And just like with the UH-1 Huey, I can't use the trimmer. It's just not usable for me with a spring joystick, so I don't use it at all. As soon as I try to use the trimmer everything gets messed up and I crash. So I fly with hands-on continuously making tiny corrections, works best for me.

I hate the artificial trimmers. Too confusing and weird.

[Hoirtel]

1 minute ago, dawgie79 said:

Oki, so. I just flew the Apache for a few moments for the first time. And just like with the UH-1 Huey, I can't use the trimmer. It's just not usable for me with a spring joystick, so I don't use it at all. As soon as I try to use the trimmer everything gets messed up and I crash. So I fly with hands-on continuously making tiny corrections, works best for me.

I hate the artificial trimmers. Too confusing and weird.

You'll get it eventually. But fly manually for a while first. 

[Scaley]

On 5/18/2022 at 8:13 PM, dawgie79 said:

Oki, so. I just flew the Apache for a few moments for the first time. And just like with the UH-1 Huey, I can't use the trimmer. It's just not usable for me with a spring joystick, so I don't use it at all. As soon as I try to use the trimmer everything gets messed up and I crash. So I fly with hands-on continuously making tiny corrections, works best for me.

I hate the artificial trimmers. Too confusing and weird.

Most people here have spring joysticks. If you choose the option that ED have called "FFB friendly" it is actually the normal trim method. If at any point you feel it is messed up just hit the trim re-set switch and you'll go back to the default position. I suspect you'll really struggle with the Apache if you never trim as ED add more systems that use the trim position for a reference.

[mbits]

On 5/18/2022 at 8:13 PM, dawgie79 said:

Oki, so. I just flew the Apache for a few moments for the first time. And just like with the UH-1 Huey, I can't use the trimmer. It's just not usable for me with a spring joystick, so I don't use it at all. As soon as I try to use the trimmer everything gets messed up and I crash. So I fly with hands-on continuously making tiny corrections, works best for me.

I hate the artificial trimmers. Too confusing and weird.

I found learning was much better if you ignored trim completely.  Then start using it when you'd be otherwise holding a straight line on the way to a waypoint along with using trim reset so you can remove confusion while you're figuring things out.  Then use it a bit for getting into hovers.  It's very useful and important but not ideal if you're new to flying helis (like I was/am).  Eventually it all works well enough but I still like trim reset as I can't quickly feel where the cyclic is and sometimes just want to start a fresh.

Edited May 19, 2022 by mbits

[dawgie79]

Thanks guys. I think I figured out why the force trim was messing with me. I trimmed, and then I always used trim reset, so when the helo was trimmed with the cyclic pretty far from center, the jump of the cyclic when resetting the trim was too big, hence loss of control. 

I'm going to try again this afternoon. 

[mbits]

Yeah trim reset is harsh. You can avoid it most of the time. I like to use it but I expect a sudden lurch.

[dawgie79]

Yep that was my problem, using the trim reset (too often). All is oki now.
 

[Hummingbird]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:41 AM, Hammer1-1 said:

I flew it in MP for the first time today after logging 30 hours in SP...Im fairly used to it now, but I still find myself trimming myself into an uncommanded roll. For an angry pit bull, she is a delicate princess to fly...

Yes, same problem here. She seems very wobbly in roll.

[pii]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:30 PM, toutenglisse said:

No - a warthog stick.

It doesn't matter it works fine on normal JS as well, it is what I use

Edited May 30, 2022 by pii

[McGraw]

If my joystick and pedals stay where I leave them, why would I need to use force trim?

I’ve trialled the huey, gazelle and flown the Blackhawk for a bit using my gunfighter with no springs  and a bit of clutch and just can’t deal with the Apache yet. Seems to be almost impossible to set a target torque level or get it going in a straight line without crazy inputs.

 

[mbits]

53 minutes ago, McGraw said:

If my joystick and pedals stay where I leave them, why would I need to use force trim?

I’ve trialled the huey, gazelle and flown the Blackhawk for a bit using my gunfighter with no springs  and a bit of clutch and just can’t deal with the Apache yet. Seems to be almost impossible to set a target torque level or get it going in a straight line without crazy inputs.

 

I asked exactly that sort of thing because of my springless dampened VKB EVO in discord.  I think generally speaking the view was that I could just not bother with force trim but I would technically not be doing it the way its designed.  Perhaps it would have an undesired effect on stability authority but thats over my head. 

That said, how can you unless you have a no longer produced or very expensive force feedback. Most peoples set ups are a compromise compared to the real thing ofcourse.  I went back to springs because I find it easier to be honest and centre trimming works fine (recent patch flight instability aside). 

"Nudging" the controls and having them return works better for me.  If you force trimmed in a real apache I think you would then have even linear magnetic force in all directions from that new "centre".  So I would argue using springs and the centre trimming is actually nearer to that compared to a stick which stays where you put it but with no even and increasing resistance from that new location.

Unless you held force trim every time you moved. Maybe that is the correct way I don't know.

Marketing sticks with the option to go springless and dampened as being "just like a helicopter" is debatable from what I understand now. Depends on which helicopter.  I dont mind though as I wanted a VKB NXT anyway, just so happened the EVO replaced it.

Edited May 30, 2022 by mbits

[McGraw]

12 hours ago, mbits said:

I asked exactly that sort of thing because of my springless dampened VKB EVO in discord.  I think generally speaking the view was that I could just not bother with force trim but I would technically not be doing it the way its designed.  Perhaps it would have an undesired effect on stability authority but thats over my head. 

That said, how can you unless you have a no longer produced or very expensive force feedback. Most peoples set ups are a compromise compared to the real thing ofcourse.  I went back to springs because I find it easier to be honest and centre trimming works fine (recent patch flight instability aside). 

"Nudging" the controls and having them return works better for me.  If you force trimmed in a real apache I think you would then have even linear magnetic force in all directions from that new "centre".  So I would argue using springs and the centre trimming is actually nearer to that compared to a stick which stays where you put it but with no even and increasing resistance from that new location.

Unless you held force trim every time you moved. Maybe that is the correct way I don't know.

Marketing sticks with the option to go springless and dampened as being "just like a helicopter" is debatable from what I understand now. Depends on which helicopter.  I dont mind though as I wanted a VKB NXT anyway, just so happened the EVO replaced it.

 

Ok thanks. Leaving the springs in would make it easier to go back to jets

[dburne]

1 hour ago, McGraw said:

Ok thanks. Leaving the springs in would make it easier to go back to jets

That is what I ended up doing after much trial and error.

[Hummingbird]

Has anything been changed/updated in the SCAS roll channel in the past few months? Just asking as like I said earlier, I really don't remember the Apache being so unstable in the roll axis during my first month of flying her. So when I came back to her a few weeks ago, I was surprised at how much she would rock in roll after no longer commanding any and just going straight.

By comparison the Mi24 feels rock solid in roll, and quickly stabilizes after any roll commands.

Is the RL Apache SCAS really that much worse than the Mi24's ?

Edited June 2, 2022 by Hummingbird