How to Takeoff?

[Rifter]

As mentioned from a couple of people here, I also had some ‘wobble’ moments when picking up the Apache into a hover in my first attempts.

But the AH-64 is indeed a very stable helicopter. The mistake a made is that I instantly tried to react to the helicopter movements on the cyclic and the pedals as I was used to from the other helicopters. That quickly brought me into pilot induced oscillations because I started to fight the flight augumentation system.

Then I realised that the apache does not just tilt or roll away aggressively when not instantly countered on the controls but instead leaves the pilot plenty of time to observe the movement and then to calmly react on the controls without haste.

Flight control wise the AH-64 is the most relaxing helicopter experience within DCS for me. Wags was right - it nearly feels like cheating or a…

…video game?

[Seaside]

I seem to be having trouble with rotor speed. 

I can take-off and almost land but I start getting rotor speed high warnings when airborne. I try adjusting pitch but the rotor speed stays the same.

If I reduce throttle by a hair the rotor speed is fine for a few seconds then I get low rotor speed.

I wind up in a seesaw battle with the throttle which I thought we should rarely touch ?

 

Would be nice to see some "what to do if" videos.

I don't recall Wags having any issues with rotor speed for instance or maybe I missed it.

Just a thought.

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Seaside

[Toge]

26 minutes ago, Seaside said:

I seem to be having trouble with rotor speed. 

I can take-off and almost land but I start getting rotor speed high warnings when airborne. I try adjusting pitch but the rotor speed stays the same.

If I reduce throttle by a hair the rotor speed is fine for a few seconds then I get low rotor speed.

I wind up in a seesaw battle with the throttle which I thought we should rarely touch ?

 

Would be nice to see some "what to do if" videos.

I don't recall Wags having any issues with rotor speed for instance or maybe I missed it.

Just a thought.

You should not touch the throttle (power levers) at all once you've done the startup procedures - they should stay at the "Fly" position. This means that the throttle and rotor speed are managed automatically. You just use the collective to manage the pitch angle of the rotor, so essentially the amount of lift produced. The rotor speed is supposed to stay roughly the same.

You might get high/low rotor RPM warnings if you make too large and quick changes to the collective. Or if you try to pull too much collective (>100% torque, i.e. more than the engines can provide), the rotor speed will drop. The amount of engine power needed to keep the bird up depends on the conditions (weight/load, temperature, altitude) too. Heavy bird in hot climate well above sea level will have difficulties even taking off.

Simple "what to do": Leave the power levers to "Fly" and handle the collective with care.

[Seaside]

15 minutes ago, Toge said:

You should not touch the throttle (power levers) at all once you've done the startup procedures - they should stay at the "Fly" position. This means that the throttle and rotor speed are managed automatically. You just use the collective to manage the pitch angle of the rotor, so essentially the amount of lift produced. The rotor speed is supposed to stay roughly the same.

You might get high/low rotor RPM warnings if you make too large and quick changes to the collective. Or if you try to pull too much collective (>100% torque, i.e. more than the engines can provide), the rotor speed will drop. The amount of engine power needed to keep the bird up depends on the conditions (weight/load, temperature, altitude) too. Heavy bird in hot climate well above sea level will have difficulties even taking off.

Simple "what to do": Leave the power levers to "Fly" and handle the collective with care.

That's what I thought. I think I'll un-map the throttle. I think I bump it sometimes.

I had it mapped to a slider on my Thrustmaster and what I'm finding is that if I move the throttle out of the fly position. (Even on the ground).

The game does not seem to recognize when I put it back into fly position. 

Game continuously gives high/low rotor speed warning/

Maybe a bug ? or maybe just my install ?

 

Thanks

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Seaside

[pii]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:22 PM, Mad Dog 762 said:

I have had trouble with it wanting to go backwards when I pull pitch.  Even shoving the cyclic all the way forward wouldn't stop it going backward.  I think I have something wrong with controls or trim.  

Oddly I  had set the game  play option for EASY FLIGHT just to see if It worked, because I'm having issues like you. Well, When I tried to take off it went backwards and I took off tail first! lol when I point the tail up I was able to then start moving forward, but I was pointing straight down, it turned out to be my best take off, but very odd. lol  

[hetman_]

It felt strange at first but I am starting to get to it slowly. If I remember how many times I crashed in Hind before I was able to land in hover.. What I feel strange is how torque is being applied to collective movements - it seems overshooting my collecitve inputs. However I have not noted yet crazy VRS we see in the Hind.

[Diesel_Thunder]

2 hours ago, Seaside said:

That's what I thought. I think I'll un-map the throttle. I think I bump it sometimes.

I had it mapped to a slider on my Thrustmaster and what I'm finding is that if I move the throttle out of the fly position. (Even on the ground).

The game does not seem to recognize when I put it back into fly position. 

Game continuously gives high/low rotor speed warning/

Maybe a bug ? or maybe just my install ?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

There’s an option in the AH-64 special options to look for. It’s to use fingerlifts to engage lockout. If you use that option, then the power levers can go no farther than the FLY position. You’d then have to press a separate control which would pull up the finger lifts and allow you to move the levers into lockout.

It’s similar to an option in the Viper, Hornet, and Tomcat. Those aircraft also have a feature that limit throttle travel to military power only, until that control is pressed, and then you can go into afterburner.

[Seaside]

15 minutes ago, Diesel_Thunder said:

There’s an option in the AH-64 special options to look for. It’s to use fingerlifts to engage lockout. If you use that option, then the power levers can go no farther than the FLY position. You’d then have to press a separate control which would pull up the finger lifts and allow you to move the levers into lockout.

It’s similar to an option in the Viper, Hornet, and Tomcat. Those aircraft also have a feature that limit throttle travel to military power only, until that control is pressed, and then you can go into afterburner.

Ah I'll look. I bypassed it in the f-18

 

Thanks

Edited March 21, 2022 by Seaside

[Diesel_Thunder]

1 minute ago, Seaside said:

Ah I'll look. I bypassed it in the f-18

 

Thanks

 

No problem! 
 

I don’t use that feature in the fighters either, but instead use the detents on my TM Warthog. Very useful for Apache as lockout is very rarely used, and the power levers stay at full unless in the process of startup or shutdown. 

[pii]

On 3/18/2022 at 12:18 PM, parrettjung said:

I have the same problem. Tried following Wagg's video and the thing just keeps spinning to the right upon lift off. Pressed CTRL+Return and the axis indicators are the same as the video but the aircraft just keeps spinning. Not sure what I'm doing wrong

Ditto here it gets so much spin I have to do 100% left rudder and that still doesn't stop it. If I ever get it going forward it can fly great but landing is the same . I  can be comming down nice and smooth but once I'm low it (ETL?) it starts going all wobbly and I  have to put it down hard, before it gets completely out of control, and then watch it tip over  lol 

[dburne]

24 minutes ago, pii said:

Ditto here it gets so much spin I have to do 100% left rudder and that still doesn't stop it. If I ever get it going forward it can fly great but landing is the same . I  can be comming down nice and smooth but once I'm low it (ETL?) it starts going all wobbly and I  have to put it down hard, before it gets completely out of control, and then watch it tip over  lol 

I have finally got take offs into a hover down. Took me some time. I feed it a small amount of both left rudder and small bit of left on the cyclic. As soon as the wheels leave the ground I adjust both to compensate for what the chopper is trying to do that I don't want it to do. Takes some good and quick co-ordination there.

Landings from hover another story entirely for me, have not made many at all that have not damaged the chopper. Tomorrow will be my work day on that one lol.

[pii]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:18 PM, dburne said:

I have finally got take offs into a hover down. Took me some time. I feed it a small amount of both left rudder and small bit of left on the cyclic. As soon as the wheels leave the ground I adjust both to compensate for what the chopper is trying to do that I don't want it to do. Takes some good and quick co-ordination there.

Landings from hover another story entirely for me, have not made many at all that have not damaged the chopper. Tomorrow will be my work day on that one lol.

I have to have left rudder set to about 70% left to even have a chance to take off somewhat  normal but It will not hover in one spot it has to be moving forward or it will go nuts and start spinning like a top. Maybe I'll work on the curves next. 

 

I have found a work around if I have to take off from a pad. I have Goerge take me and then I take over  

Edited April 3, 2022 by pii

[dburne]

12 minutes ago, pii said:

I have to have left rudder set to about 70% left to even have a change to take off somewhat  normal but It will not hover in one spot it has to be moving forward or it will go nuts and start spinning like a top. Maybe I'll work on the curves next. 

 

I have found a work around if I have to take off from a pad. I have Goerge take me and then I take over  

 

Have you checked your rudder calibration lately?

[pii]

4 minutes ago, dburne said:

Have you checked your rudder calibration lately?

Oh yeah I've done everything, even a new install on a different SSD and it's still the same. Oh well its not like I'm grounded I just look like a crazy drunk trying to take off.

[dburne]

2 minutes ago, pii said:

Oh yeah I've done everything, even a new install on a different SSD and it's still the same. Oh well its not like I'm grounded I just look like a crazy drunk trying to take off.

Make sure you don't have a crazy curve in there. The rudder is pretty sensitive, so if you have a large curved and end up having to apply more rudder to compensate then you will hit the very large curve at the other end and blammo you are out of control. I think I have very little if any curve in mine.

Edited March 23, 2022 by dburne

[pii]

Just now, dburne said:

Make sure you don't have a crazy curve in there. The rudder is pretty sensitive, so if you have a large curved and end up having to apply more rudder to compensate then you will hit the very large curve at the other end and blammo you are out of control.

I set them up like Wags with about an 8% curve although I have tried many, some with extremes curves,  It does the same no matter what.  

[dburne]

1 minute ago, pii said:

I set them up like Wags with about an 8% curve although I have tried many, some with extremes curves,  It does the same no matter what.  

Very strange behavior, don't know what to tell ya on that one. Yeah mine requires usually a little more left rudder than I am already holding when wheels leave the ground but no where near like 70% I don't think. Unless I am moving it that much without realizing it.

Edited March 23, 2022 by dburne

[pii]

Just now, dburne said:

Very strange behavior, don't know what to tell ya on that one. 

My feeling exactly. Its not like I'm a rookie I have just about every MOD DCS has and been playing their stuff for years. And this take off hover thing has me stumped, George doesn't have any trouble and takes off like its an elevator.    

[bradmick]

Moved to:
 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by bradmick

[Rabies]

On 3/21/2022 at 1:25 PM, gibbo57 said:

   Well guys I expected a few problems with early release and I have read how hard it is to control in the air and takeoff, but I cant even do that.   As soon as I start a Cold State mission, the hel'o starts going straight back and crashes into whatever is behind me unless I hit the esc button first.   In the 2 days I have owned it I have never got it off the ground from a cold or hot start and I have recorded being killed 11 times, until I started hitting the esc button.  

   I have uninstalled all my mods in the saved games location, which include all aircraft and all items in the Tech folder and no matter what map I start on, and I own all the maps, the aircraft will just take off backwards without the engines running, ie cold state and I crash into whatever is behind me. I have started a mission with engines running and again all it wants to do is roll backwards until I push stick all the way forward and force trim.   Once in the air, which is once out of every 10 attempts the aircraft will pitch nose down and no matter how much you pull back and force trim up, you will still nose dive into the ground.  

   I have started while already in the air and again it will nose dive and no matter how much force trim up you give it, you will still hot the ground.   I am pretty good at all other helo's and I own all of them.   I fly multiplayer with them and have never had a problem, except with Hind a few times, so I can handle the helo's, but this problem with going backwards is a nightmare.   I have uninstalled all of my bought modules and I own every one of the except the I-16 and still the Apache just goes backwards while in cold state, or any state for the matter.  

   I have run out of ideas on how to fix this problem.   I have all the controls set correctly in options, as shown by senior members on youtube, so who knows whats wrong with it.   Hope someone out there may have some idea where I can start to look to fix the problem, or it will remain uninstalled and I wont waste my flying time on it anymore.  

   Many thanks for the advice but I should have read every post in the forum, but I was going mad.   Tusler gave me the solution.   I had the Game Mode Box ticked in options, its the very top box on the left side with Avionics Box underneath it.   I can now start it, take off and it flies like a dream, just need to do some control fine tuning and it will be my go to Helo when I feel like flying them.   Many thanks again everyone cheers.

   Many thanks for any help in advance, cheers.

 

Re-sync your flight controls with your pc. Then delete all your axis commands and then reassign them. See if that helps. 

[mwlue]

After hours of trial and errors, I seemed getting the sweet spot in custom curves for my controllers.  

I get that flying the apache at the current FM/system state, smooth cyclic & collective adjustment is crucial.   While practice make perfect, proper hardware setting/tweaks will help alot in the process.

Here's my cyclic curve for ref.  My goal is to get soft around the center while still responsive when needed.  Note that I try to get as linear as possible outside the "soft" zone. The default curves can't meet my need.  If you think the curve look weird?  My rudder curve look even uglier!


Below is my rudder curve, again I tried to get as linear as possible outside of the "soft" zone.


The values definitely not suitable for everyone, one must try out your own values even with the same hardware.

With the custom curve I'm able to take off into a "relatively" stable hover (can't really nail to a specific spot yet), the smoothly transition to forward flight, then back to hover and land.

Just a bit of sharing on how I get my Apache enjoyable.   Orzz

[Joker328]

9 hours ago, mwlue said:

After hours of trial and errors, I seemed getting the sweet spot in custom curves for my controllers.  

I get that flying the apache at the current FM/system state, smooth cyclic & collective adjustment is crucial.   While practice make perfect, proper hardware setting/tweaks will help alot in the process.

Here's my cyclic curve for ref.  My goal is to get soft around the center while still responsive when needed.  Note that I try to get as linear as possible outside the "soft" zone. The default curves can't meet my need.  If you think the curve look weird?  My rudder curve look even uglier!


Below is my rudder curve, again I tried to get as linear as possible outside of the "soft" zone.


The values definitely not suitable for everyone, one must try out your own values even with the same hardware.

With the custom curve I'm able to take off into a "relatively" stable hover (can't really nail to a specific spot yet), the smoothly transition to forward flight, then back to hover and land.

Just a bit of sharing on how I get my Apache enjoyable.   Orzz

I think this is the way I'm going to go as well. I tried adding a bunch of curvature with the slider, but it's still really tough. The weird thing is that by default (zero deadzone or curvature), there seems to be this really non-linear jump at the slightest input, but then it ramps up more slowly from there. It's the opposite of what you want, and it is hard to be precise with a centering joystick even with a ton of curvature. I think a user curve (similar to the top one above) where it is super precise around center and then more linear after that is what is needed.

[dburne]

14 minutes ago, Joker328 said:

I think this is the way I'm going to go as well. I tried adding a bunch of curvature with the slider, but it's still really tough. The weird thing is that by default (zero deadzone or curvature), there seems to be this really non-linear jump at the slightest input, but then it ramps up more slowly from there. It's the opposite of what you want, and it is hard to be precise with a centering joystick even with a ton of curvature. I think a user curve (similar to the top one above) where it is super precise around center and then more linear after that is what is needed.

 

I think the rudder needs a bit of tweaking by ED, no matter the curves it has that jump to it.

[Hoirtel]

10 hours ago, mwlue said:

After hours of trial and errors, I seemed getting the sweet spot in custom curves for my controllers.  

I get that flying the apache at the current FM/system state, smooth cyclic & collective adjustment is crucial.   While practice make perfect, proper hardware setting/tweaks will help alot in the process.

Here's my cyclic curve for ref.  My goal is to get soft around the center while still responsive when needed.  Note that I try to get as linear as possible outside the "soft" zone. The default curves can't meet my need.  If you think the curve look weird?  My rudder curve look even uglier!


Below is my rudder curve, again I tried to get as linear as possible outside of the "soft" zone.


The values definitely not suitable for everyone, one must try out your own values even with the same hardware.

With the custom curve I'm able to take off into a "relatively" stable hover (can't really nail to a specific spot yet), the smoothly transition to forward flight, then back to hover and land.

Just a bit of sharing on how I get my Apache enjoyable.   Orzz

Is the soft zone for hover? Do you not fid that its too short to meet all weight and altitude variations? I have experimented with "standard" curve settings and they always seem to make it easier in one state and harder in another. Gone back to linear now.

[lefty1117]

40 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

I think the rudder needs a bit of tweaking by ED, no matter the curves it has that jump to it.

I agree with this ... or some accomodation made for twist rudder on sticks.