work in progress PNVS Stuttering

[Swift.]

When you move your head around whilst using the PNVS there is a noticeable stutter in the image, compared to when using the TADS and the image is silky smooth throughout.

The PNVS feed is smooth when you aren't moving your head so this looks more like the actual PNVS itself is stuttering as it moves through its motion.

 

To Reproduce:
1. Use the PNVS
2. Move your head

[Jagdgeschwader]

Maybe it's a small delay in the PNVS operation?

It is, after all, a sensor that copies the movement of another sensor in IHADSS so it can cause a little delay.

That's how I think it works, I may be wrong here.

[Swift.]

51 minutes ago, Jagdgeschwader said:

Maybe it's a small delay in the PNVS operation?

It is, after all, a sensor that copies the movement of another sensor in IHADSS so it can cause a little delay.

That's how I think it works, I may be wrong here.

Perhaps, but why is the TADS so smooth then? As that's also 'copy another sensors movement' when used as a NVS like this.

[Crptalk]

It does seem a decent bit smoother in actual PNVS footage than how it is currently in game.

 

 

[Jagdgeschwader]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Swift.:

Perhaps, but why is the TADS so smooth then? As that's also 'copy another sensors movement' when used as a NVS like this.

The TADS as a NVS is a lot slower and has more stutter than the PNVS.

[Swift.]

9 minutes ago, Crptalk said:

It does seem a decent bit smoother in actual PNVS footage than how it is currently in game.

 

 

Ah yeah perfect example, it just looks like how the TADS is now, but faster. Which is kinda what you'd expect

1 minute ago, Jagdgeschwader said:

The TADS as a NVS is a lot slower and has more stutter than the PNVS.

Negative, check the video I linked in the first post. The TADS does delay more but the actual feed is smoother.

[Tepnox]

4 hours ago, Swift. said:

When you move your head around whilst using the PNVS there is a noticeable stutter in the image, compared to when using the TADS and the image is silky smooth throughout.

The PNVS feed is smooth when you aren't moving your head so this looks more like the actual PNVS itself is stuttering as it moves through its motion.

 

To Reproduce:
1. Use the PNVS
2. Move your head

I am with you. I fly the Apache in VR and it is very noticeable with the PNVS compared to the TADS. The response time and movement is of course better with the PNVS (TADS takes longer) but it shouldn't be that "stuttery".

The PNVS definitly needs some more fine-tuning in smoothness.

[NineLine]

I have asked the team and out SME's, last I heard they were happy with it, and that there is some lag to be expected if your head turns are too quick. But I will report back.

Also, I cannot stress enough.... include tracks. Why? I can load up your track internally and see exactly what you were seeing and see if there is any improvement over OB release, I know that some of you hate giving tracks, but they are very valuable in 99% of reports.

Thanks.

[nrgized]

12 hours ago, NineLine said:

I have asked the team and out SME's, last I heard they were happy with it, and that there is some lag to be expected if your head turns are too quick. But I will report back.

Also, I cannot stress enough.... include tracks. Why? I can load up your track internally and see exactly what you were seeing and see if there is any improvement over OB release, I know that some of you hate giving tracks, but they are very valuable in 99% of reports.

Thanks.

Great points.

One thing I'd like to point out though.  I think everyone understands that the slew rate may not match your heads rate.   Its the stuttering that people are pointing out not so much that it lags behind your line of sight.  

 

So yes if my eyes are looking at 156 the sensor might be at 123 because its slewing over to 156. But during its translation its stutter stepping its way which is off putting and not visible in the Cosmo video.  It translates around at a smooth rate.  Its most noticeable if you move your head left to right at a slow pace. One that the sensor could keep up with.

 

I also wonder if VR has some fault in this when its doing frame interpolation.  For instance running at 45fps.

[Swift.]

Also worth noting, as nergized said, it only seems to happen when you move your head slow enough for the sensor to keep up. If you whip you head fast, it seems a lot smoother.

 

I'll do a track today

[nachomaga]

Swift, the opposite happens to me in VR, hehehe...

9 hours ago, NineLine said:

I have asked the team and out SME's, last I heard they were happy with it, and that there is some lag to be expected if your head turns are too quick. But I will report back.

Thanks for reported back. Anyway, even with slow head movement, PNVS seems more laggy than TADS. I said in another thread, in day light I even see a bit of stuttering in PVNS sensor movement in the nose.

I’ll do a track too.

[Lurker]

Does the stutter happen only when you move your head? If you are looking at a fixed position and turn in the helicopter, does the stutter appear? 

[nachomaga]

27 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Does the stutter happen only when you move your head? If you are looking at a fixed position and turn in the helicopter, does the stutter appear? 

Not in my case, with the head in fixed position PNVS is very smooth while turn the helicopter.

[nachomaga]

@NineLine here you have the track. Anyway, I watched in VR but the the head movements are not visible. In 2D movements are visible.

Hope it helps, thanks again.

AH-64D PNVS stuttering.trk

[River]

You guys sure it's not PNVS AND scenery stutter? PNVS gives a huge FPS hit so maybe it's not only the PNVS that stutters. My whole game stutters when I use PNVS or mirror TADS on a MPD. 

[Swift.]

3 minutes ago, River said:

You guys sure it's not PNVS AND scenery stutter? PNVS gives a huge FPS hit so maybe it's not only the PNVS that stutters. My whole game stutters when I use PNVS or mirror TADS on a MPD. 

In my tests:
Nominal FPS = 100
TADS as NVS FPS = 80-83
PNVS as NVS FPS = 80-85

[nachomaga]

1 hour ago, River said:

You guys sure it's not PNVS AND scenery stutter? PNVS gives a huge FPS hit so maybe it's not only the PNVS that stutters. My whole game stutters when I use PNVS or mirror TADS on a MPD. 

Nope. As I said before, when helo is turning and head more or less fixed, PNVS video is very smooth, like all scenary around.

Edited April 5, 2022 by nachomaga

[Tepnox]

1 hour ago, River said:

You guys sure it's not PNVS AND scenery stutter? PNVS gives a huge FPS hit so maybe it's not only the PNVS that stutters. My whole game stutters when I use PNVS or mirror TADS on a MPD. 

I fly with constant 40fps with motion reprojection on Rift S. Stays 40 fps with / without PNVS. GPU load climbs from 70% to 85%, thats it. So no framepacing or FPS-drop issue here. Its stuttery with slow and fast head-movements. The picture in boresight or no head-movements is fine.

 

14 hours ago, NineLine said:

I have asked the team and out SME's, last I heard they were happy with it, and that there is some lag to be expected if your head turns are too quick. But I will report back.

Also, I cannot stress enough.... include tracks. Why? I can load up your track internally and see exactly what you were seeing and see if there is any improvement over OB release, I know that some of you hate giving tracks, but they are very valuable in 99% of reports.

Thanks.

Very short Track for you attached. First PNVS left to right, then TADS left to right. Thx mate.

PNVS-Stuttering.trk

BTW: My settings for cockpit display resolution is set to 512 every frame. When changing to 512 (without every frame) it stutters alot more.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Tepnox

[frostycab]

This is just pure speculation on my part, but if it’s only really noticeable with slow head movers then to me it sounds like the polling rate might be set too low. If the PNVS only gets your head position every 250ms for example, it’s going to look quite juddery with small, slow movements. The lower the polling rate, the more notchy it would appear. 

[Von Thrud]

@NineLine please see my tracks in this thread related to the PNVS rendering being stuttery when turning head at less than the slew limit of that sensor

 

[jnr4817]

On 4/5/2022 at 7:46 AM, Tepnox said:

I fly with constant 40fps with motion reprojection on Rift S. Stays 40 fps with / without PNVS. GPU load climbs from 70% to 85%, thats it. So no framepacing or FPS-drop issue here. Its stuttery with slow and fast head-movements. The picture in boresight or no head-movements is fine.

 

Very short Track for you attached. First PNVS left to right, then TADS left to right. Thx mate.

PNVS-Stuttering.trk 211.98 kB · 0 downloads

BTW: My settings for cockpit display resolution is set to 512 every frame. When changing to 512 (without every frame) it stutters alot more.

 

What game settings are you using, trying to compare, as Im using rift s? Do you use the OTT?

[Jester2138]

On 4/4/2022 at 3:33 PM, NineLine said:

I have asked the team and out SME's, last I heard they were happy with it, and that there is some lag to be expected if your head turns are too quick. But I will report back.

He's not talking about lag between head movement and PNVS movement. He's talking about how the PNVS does not appear to smoothly pan/tilt in the first place, but rapidly "step" across positions. It's most visible in the video he posted when tracking a passing scenery object with his head. You can see how the PNVS "steps" to pan instead of panning continuously.

What he's showing would not be physically possible in a real sensor.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jester2138

[Tepnox]

23 hours ago, jnr4817 said:

What game settings are you using, trying to compare, as Im using rift s? Do you use the OTT?

I currently use OTT with 1.4 SS on my Rift S:

 

And these are my settings in-game right now:

Cheers!

 

[nachomaga]

On 4/16/2022 at 12:29 AM, Jester2138 said:

He's not talking about lag between head movement and PNVS movement. He's talking about how the PNVS does not appear to smoothly pan/tilt in the first place, but rapidly "step" across positions. It's most visible in the video he posted when tracking a passing scenery object with his head. You can see how the PNVS "steps" to pan instead of panning continuously.

What he's showing would not be physically possible in a real sensor.

 

It’s never been explained so well, thanks

Hope ED find the problem, I’m loving the Apache, amazing module, but I’m not flying so much in the night because of PNVS problem. I use TADS instead (bit more smooth) but of course CPG needs more than me, lol.

[ilikepie]

some of our guys using vr have had a similar thing,

 

Quote

Just did some testing  , setting cockpit displays to "every frame" makes a noticeable difference to the smoothness of the IHADS FLIR picture in VR.  Without every frame selected, it renders every second frame, but because you have it set to render in one eye, which is half your referesh rate in VR  it's actually rendering at half that again, or at quarter frames. (edited)

 

ymmv