Update on improved ATC?

[Gary]

Admin: Maybe merge these threads when you answer please?

[SharpeXB]

Just now, MAXsenna said:

You never fail, do you?

I’m not against the idea, they already said this is planned. But I wouldn’t expect something like Beyond ATC. And constantly bringing up other games gets tiresome and frankly precludes the possibility of better solutions. 

[Gary]

5 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

You never fail, do you? At least two sims does this already. Just Google that Viper sim for ATC videos. This is all AI, and we know about that priority...

I see @Northstar98 already points you in the right direction, which he has done before. I assume you didn't bother to watch.

@Gary this is Sharpy for you...

As I have said - each to their own of course. Everyone is free to use DCS the way it suits and pleases them.

But fundementally if your answer to the simple question "do you consider DCS to be a flight simulation at all on any level" is yes - then the current ATC is unquestionably very much lacking and in need of attention and has been for a very, very long time now.

[ruxtmp]

I don't think there is anything realistically going to change with the way ATC and for the most part where the core game is currently, Maybe when ED creates a new DCS sim it will be part of that. Currently there is zero ROI for ED to update the ATC or AI or a lot of core game features as the game is a sandbox with nothing going on around the map until you create it with the editor, script, or substitute a real human into it. Either accept what it is or try another sim where it is part of base build to simulate an active world around you.

Edited October 27, 2024 by ruxtmp

[SharpeXB]

It’s odd to realize, DCS simulates radios. What do you actually do with these in the sim? Not much really. The chief gameplay modes as I see it are DLC campaigns and multiplayer, neither of these use the radios or menu fully. DLC campaigns usually replace the comms tree with F10 options although usually require you to at least tune the frequency. MP afaik doesn’t really use radios at all. SRS uses these but the players don’t, they’re mostly silent. As far as I can tell the airbase ATC doesn’t even appear to function online. And operating at an airfield the carrier while ignoring the ATC carries no risk, contacting the boat makes the lights come on but that’s all. Like in Case III if you just ignored the approach time slot I don’t think that increases your risk of a collision etc. And the A-10 I think is the only module that gives you the ability to give detailed instructions to your flight and wingmen, I don’t think the Apache flight pays any attention to this at all.

1 minute ago, ruxtmp said:

Maybe when ED creates a new DCS sim it will be part of that.

Huh? “Not Planned”

[ruxtmp]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

  4 minutes ago, ruxtmp said:

Maybe when ED creates a new DCS sim it will be part of that.

Huh? “Not Planned”

Exactly, basically I was saying that it is not going to get any better anytime soon as it was never intended to really be anything more than what it is.

[MAXsenna]

I’m not against the idea, they already said this is planned. But I wouldn’t expect something like Beyond ATC. And constantly bringing up other games gets tiresome and frankly precludes the possibility of better solutions. 

Misunderstood then. Well, we're all in favour of better AI in every aspect of the game. And if some hobby enthusiasts can do it. Why not Eagle Dynamics?

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[buceador]

19 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

And if some hobby enthusiasts can do it. Why not Eagle Dynamics?

This!

[Northstar98]

On 10/27/2024 at 4:29 PM, SharpeXB said:

MP afaik doesn’t really use radios at all

Eh? There's an inbuilt voice chat system similar to SRS. It isn't a popular as SRS and there are still things SRS does which the native system does not but player radios absolutely have a purpose in multiplayer.

On 10/27/2024 at 4:29 PM, SharpeXB said:

And operating at an airfield the carrier while ignoring the ATC carries no risk

Well, yes it does - I've given you the prime example twice now (i.e when you have other aircraft waiting to takeoff, taxiing onto the runway/landing area), in the case of the former, the current ATC system is as good as useless.

On 10/27/2024 at 4:29 PM, SharpeXB said:

Like in Case III if you just ignored the approach time slot I don’t think that increases your risk of a collision etc

If you were in the same marshal stack, at the same altitude, that absolutely could result in collision which is why marshal should separate aircraft.

Likewise, if you're on final and aircraft are fouling the landing area (either by taxiing onto it, or using the waist catapults), that also increases risk of collisions were it not for a proper ATC system, who should wave you off due to a foul deck.

This has been relevant IRL too, and it shows what happens when ATC (or rather everyone in PriFly and the LSOs) isn't performing:

I have had a near identical experience as this in single-player, with AI aircraft at land bases - the only reason why I didn't collide is because conditions were such that I could see AI aircraft making incursions onto the runway and I was further away, giving me enough time to go around.

This proceeded to happen over and over again however until eventually I just said "sod it" and landed as an aircraft was departing - narrowly avoiding it.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Northstar98
I should mention that there are multiple LSOs who also failed to waveoff the incoming EA-6B, rewording/addendum

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

If you were in the same marshal stack, at the same altitude, that absolutely could result in collision which is why marshal should separate aircraft.

Does the game AI actually follow this? Bravo if it does.

8 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Eh? There's an inbuilt voice chat system similar to SRS.

Yes, but I’ve never seen this used nor honestly is SRS. Yes people are on it but they’re basically silent. SRS is useful for automated GCI but I hardly see people ever using it for voice comms. The only times I end up actually chit chatting online it’s when using Discord. 

8 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

the current ATC system is as good as useless.

Well yeah, the current ATC always says ‘runway occupied” regardless of any traffic. At least it does online.

[Northstar98]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Does the game AI actually follow this? Bravo if it does.

Ai aircraft do indeed follow CASE III recovery procedures, including flying the marshal stack (the holding orbit before commencing an approach).

However, they do it automatically - marshal/tower/approach and recovering AI aircraft don't interact with each other.

Marshal will increase the altitude, distance and entry time for successive aircraft, at least IIRC.

[HILOK]

for me ATC is undoubtedly the most eagerly awaited missing feature to fill DCS world with "life".
i understand this is a significant undertaking, but i believe in the meantime ED could easily improve what's already there using very little resources.

just a few thoughts (focusing on western modern era):
o replace QFE by QNH
o wind from (iso blowing to direction), rounded to 10 degrees, speed in knots
o provide QNH with startup clearance (iso take-off CLR) and after "inbound" call
o correct take-off CLR: <callsign><runway>"cleared for take-off, wind"<w/v>
o fix the "unable to clear for take-off" followed by take-off CLR issue
o fix request azimuth/nav assistance

all these points although mostly cosmetic (no proper traffic vectoring, separation or deconfliction service provided) would already add a lot to immersion in my view

Edited October 30, 2024 by HILOK
seems has been corrected meanwhile

[=475FG= Dawger]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

 

Yes, but I’ve never seen this used nor honestly is SRS. Yes people are on it but they’re basically silent. SRS is useful for automated GCI but I hardly see people ever using it for voice comms. The only times I end up actually chit chatting online it’s when using Discord. 

 

I am starting to wonder if you actually fly DCS at all. 

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I am starting to wonder if you actually fly DCS at all. 

Yes I play it online quite a lot. I think it’s odd so many people are “on” SRS but basically have nothing to say. They seem to treat it like a real radio with brevity and so on. Discord is more encouraging of chit chat. I’ve seen servers in these games change from one to the other and the comms just dry up. It’s odd. None of the more populated server I see use the DCS VOIP. SRS can do some really cool stuff though, I’ve seen it used for voice recognition driven ATC and command menus and the like. So back to the topic here it looks like it’s totally possible to make SRS do ATC even have it respond to voice commands. 

Edited October 27, 2024 by SharpeXB

[MAXsenna]

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

SRS can do some really cool stuff though, I’ve seen it used for voice recognition driven ATC and command menus and the like.

Are you sure about that?  

VAICOM is a plugin for VoiceAttack, and you can command AI and communicate with ATC, and of course Overlord bot, (or what it's called), with VoiceAttack alone. 

And here is the fun part. Beyond ATC does the same. It uses the in game ATC system, while it uses Microsoft Speech Recognition to communicate with the game. So with VAICOM, we already have that in DCS. We only need a smarter AI. Yeah, and BTW. One can speak with ATC in that Viper sim too.

[bfr]

6 hours ago, Gary said:

Now consider if the below was a thing in DCS:

ATC that actually works as intended? (none of this cleared for take off - not cleared for take off - oh go on then, cleared for take off!

ATC that was seperated to specific freq for each controller (ground, tower, app/dep etc)

AWACS that didn't spam you every 3 seconds with anything at all - let alone details of some banits 200 miles away

New voices to replace the existing (with some minimal effects)

The ability to hear these agencies interacting with other flights on the same freq locally

Would not the above alone improve the experience?

Yeah, even the existing basic features functioning competently would feel like a small win.

[SharpeXB]

24 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Are you sure about that?

It’s for the other WWII sim but yeah it’s just done via SRS, no other mods or plug-ins needed. Not sure what else it uses on the server side but all I have installed is SRS. It does all the basic ATC stuff plus uses your call sign, does GCI and assigns missions, etc. even has “authentic” accents for Axis or Allies. It’s quite remarkable.

[MAXsenna]

It’s for the other WWII sim but yeah it’s just done via SRS, no other mods or plug-ins needed. Not sure what else it uses on the server side but all I have installed is SRS. It does all the basic ATC stuff plus uses your call sign, does GCI and assigns missions, etc. even has “authentic” accents for Axis or Allies. It’s quite remarkable.

Ah, I thought you meant in DCS. Neat. So that other WWII have ATC? Didn't know that. Marvellous! Is it any good? Gotta check what is used and how for the Speech Recognition.

EDIT: It's an extra server app you communicate with through SRS, so yeah, it makes you only need SRS, as everything else is done on the server, and is not part of the base game, and only on one server, Combat Box. Seems like OverlordBot+, and not what we're asking for here, as it doesn't communicate with the AI.

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[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

not what we're asking for here, as it doesn't communicate with the AI.

No it only works for MP. But still very neat. I would settle for DCS working at all in MP. Why does this not work so many instances? It’s either a combo of map and or aircraft but it’s hit and miss. The only real purpose is to keep the players from running into each other but they aren’t paying attention anyways. 

Edited October 28, 2024 by SharpeXB

[MAXsenna]

No it only works for MP. But still very neat. I would settle for DCS working at all in MP. Why does this not work so many instances? It’s either a combo of map and or aircraft but it’s hit and miss. The only real purpose is to keep the players from running into each other but they aren’t paying attention anyways. 

I can imagine. And again. This works in the Viper sim. Both SP and MP. ATC communicates with AI. You can even hear it on the radio.

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[HILOK]

5 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

I can imagine. And again. This works in the Viper sim. Both SP and MP. ATC communicates with AI. You can even hear it on the radio.
 

yeah, that viper sim's ATC system and its implementation with voice recognition is the best i've ever seen in any sim beyond ATC (pun intended)

[draconus]

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

They seem to treat it like a real radio with brevity and so on. Discord is more encouraging of chit chat.

Shocking - they wanted to immerse themselves and play pretend real mil pilots in combat flight sim?

Discord/TeamSpeak apps are unrealistic - it doesn't check if the aircraft has any radio, it adds a super radio, doesn't need power, no malfunction possible, doesn't check for frequency (kinda simulated with the room selection), LOS, range, thus no distortion or signal loss...

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, draconus said:

Shocking - they wanted to immerse themselves and play pretend real mil pilots in combat flight sim?

Discord/TeamSpeak apps are unrealistic - it doesn't check if the aircraft has any radio, it adds a super radio, doesn't need power, no malfunction possible, doesn't check for frequency (kinda simulated with the room selection), LOS, range, thus no distortion or signal loss...

Oh sure SRS is realistic it’s just funny that nobody seems to have anything to say. And yeah Discord is what it is but people actually communicate on it. Plus for training and such you can share screens and so on. The bottom line is Discord is the only times I’ve ever experienced actually using comms. 

[Gunfreak]

14 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

I can imagine. And again. This works in the Viper sim. Both SP and MP. ATC communicates with AI. You can even hear it on the radio.

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Jupp, ATC sends you and your wingpeople on different altitudes and headings and the AI complies. And communicate back. Imagine what those guys could accomplish with a large game budget.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

Imagine what those guys could accomplish with a large game budget.

Modders don’t have budgets, that’s why comparing games isn’t relevant. Especially free games.