Chaff/Flares: how to configure them well?

[visor2580]

Before a combat flight, I usually set my chaff/flare program to "semi" and set it to release 5 chaff and 5 flares. This way, whenever someone locks me or launches at me, I can authorise the release and the plane will drop 5 chaff in semi mode.

This works well against Fox 3's and Fox 1's since the plane gets RWR warning. However for Fox 2's you need to rely on your intuition on where to flare. And, crucially, you want to only release flares but not chaff. However if you hit manual release on your CMS, it will release 5 chaff and 5 flares according to the program set.

Is there a way to somehow set it up to be able to conditionally release only chaff or only flares or both depending on the situation? What's the standard setup for the countermeasures when flying against Fox-3 and Fox-2-capable aircrafts?

[skywalker22]

Install Dice app: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3312680/

Follow the steps, its very simple.

PS: this app is for setting CMs for F-16, F/A-18 and Mirage2000.

You can set Number of chaffs and flares as you want, and you can set different programs ( for example: p1: c1,f0, p2:c0,f1, p3: c2:cf2).

[Frederf]

With programs 1, 5 and automatic there are three responses at your fingertips. What response auto picks is black box magic but one could put chaff on program 1-4 and flare on 5 to have separate respone.

As for responses themselves that's a deep topic but first order you want to think about duration and how many items produce acceptable protection per engagement.

[visor2580]

1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

Install Dice app: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3312680/

Follow the steps, its very simple.

PS: this app is for setting CMs for F-16, F/A-18 and Mirage2000.

You can set Number of chaffs and flares as you want, and you can set different programs ( for example: p1: c1,f0, p2:c0,f1, p3: c2:cf2).

Thanks for the tip! Looks really neat!

1 hour ago, Frederf said:

With programs 1, 5 and automatic there are three responses at your fingertips. What response auto picks is black box magic but one could put chaff on program 1-4 and flare on 5 to have separate respone.

As for responses themselves that's a deep topic but first order you want to think about duration and how many items produce acceptable protection per engagement.

Hmm, what do you mean 3 responses under my fingertips? I thought automatic dispense uses the currently selected program but modifies it to the type of threat detected, e.g. it won't drop flares if it is a radar-guided missile? And the other two are manual and Program 6?

[Frederf]

Semi and auto pick response based on the threat in the MDF, not manual programs 1-4. Program 5 is slap switch. There's no such thing as program 6. So for example CMS aft does the MDF, CMS forward runs the selected manual program, slap runs 5.

So try chaff on 1 and flares on 5.

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Frederf said:

There's no such thing as program 6.

CMS Left dispenses program 6, which can be programmed via the DED if necessary.

My set-up:
PRGM 1: Reactive RF countermeasures, a custom chaff program proven to defeat SA-3 and SA-6
PRGM 2: Reactive RF countermeasures, a custom chaff program proven to defeat SA-2, SA-8, SA-10, and SA-15
PRGM 3: Pre-emptive IR countermeasures (Light), provides light flare coverage for an attack run over a defended area.
PRGM 4: Pre-emptive IR countermeasures (Heavy), provides heavy flare coverage for an attack run over a defended area.
PRGM 5: ACM/defensive mix of PRGM 2 and PRGM 6 that allow me to kick out countermeasures of each type quickly
PRGM 6: Reactive IR countermeasures, for observed IR missile launches

I normally keep the CMDS mode in Semi, and switch the Manual program 1-4 knob based on situation, phase of the mission, or observed threat escalation on the RWR, while reserving the reactive flare program on PRGM 6 (CMS Left) and the quick reaction slap button. From testing, since the Auto mode responded to all observed threats by dispensing Auto program 1, regardless of the threat type (I'm guessing its logic is still WIP), I removed all countermeasures from the three Auto programs and just use CMS Aft/Right to manage my ECM separately of the CMDS.  If I need to use the ECM in noise jammer mode I'll switch to Manual CMDS mode, but that isn't common, so I'm normally in Semi.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Raptor9

[Frederf]

CMS left does different things on different F-16s. Sometimes it changes ECM priority, others runs an ECM program. This F-16 has program 6 apparently.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Frederf

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Frederf said:

CMS left does different things on different F-16s.
-snip-
This F-16 has program 6 apparently.

Naturally.  As aircraft avionics evolve I would expect nothing less, but I'm only referring to the DCS F-16 and its functionality.  Regardless of how things are in real life, I'm describing solutions that work in DCS World since that is where us DCS players operate.

[Timster76]

Am 28.4.2022 um 02:19 schrieb Raptor9:

CMS Left dispenses program 6, which can be programmed via the DED if necessary.

My set-up:
PRGM 1: Reactive RF countermeasures, a custom chaff program proven to defeat SA-3 and SA-6
PRGM 2: Reactive RF countermeasures, a custom chaff program proven to defeat SA-2, SA-8, SA-10, and SA-15
PRGM 3: Pre-emptive IR countermeasures (Light), provides light flare coverage for an attack run over a defended area.
PRGM 4: Pre-emptive IR countermeasures (Heavy), provides heavy flare coverage for an attack run over a defended area.
PRGM 5: ACM/defensive mix of PRGM 2 and PRGM 6 that allow me to kick out countermeasures of each type quickly
PRGM 6: Reactive IR countermeasures, for observed IR missile launches

I normally keep the CMDS mode in Semi, and switch the Manual program 1-4 knob based on situation, phase of the mission, or observed threat escalation on the RWR, while reserving the reactive flare program on PRGM 6 (CMS Left) and the quick reaction slap button. From testing, since the Auto mode responded to all observed threats by dispensing Auto program 1, regardless of the threat type (I'm guessing its logic is still WIP), I removed all countermeasures from the three Auto programs and just use CMS Aft/Right to manage my ECM separately of the CMDS.  If I need to use the ECM in noise jammer mode I'll switch to Manual CMDS mode, but that isn't common, so I'm normally in Semi.

 

I was wondering if you are willing to share your programs with us?

[twistking]

is there a list with the default configs for program 1-6 ?

[5ephir0th]

41 minutes ago, Timster76 said:

I was wondering if you are willing to share your programs with us?

+1

[Raptor9]

@Timster76, @5ephir0th

PRGM 1> Chaff:  BQ 4 - BI 1.000 - SQ 1 - SI 1.00 / No Flares
PRGM 2> Chaff:  BQ 4 - BI 0.500 - SQ 2 - SI 2.00 / No Flares
PRGM 3> No Chaff / Flare:  BQ 30 - BI 1.000 - SQ 1 - SI 1.00  (BQ corresponds with seconds of coverage. Change it higher or lower as needed)
PRGM 4> No Chaff / Flare:  BQ 15 - BI 0.500 - SQ 2 - SI 0.50  (BQ corresponds with seconds of coverage. Change it higher or lower as needed)
PRGM 5> Chaff:  BQ 2 - BI 0.100 - SQ 3 - SI 0.50 / Flare:  BQ 2 - BI 0.100 - SQ 3 - SI 0.50  (Merges PRGM 2 with PRGM 6 and kicks out the chaff quicker)
PRGM 6> No Chaff / Flare:  BQ 2 - BI 0.100 - SQ 3 - SI 0.50

The chaff programs only work if you are beaming the radar, which is another reason I don't use Auto, since it releases (and wastes) chaff before I can turn the plane. The reason PRGMs 5 and 6 are so rapid is because with short missile flight times (such as IR missiles or ACM combat), you need to get those expendables out quickly to run through your multiple DCS dice rolls before the missile gets too close.

I wish I could find a chaff program that had a reliable defeat rate of the SA-11, but I haven't been able to crack that nut above 50% defeat rate. Coupled with their multi-target engagement capability and rapid re-attack tendency, I just avoid SA-11's unless I have to attack the batteries themselves or something they are protecting. In which case I'm more deliberate about developing my attack plan for that objective.

I used to have flare programs that used less flares, but since the flare type changed and became less effective, you need more in the programs to increase your chances of defeating the missile. I know a lot of people use the logic of simply reducing your expendable count to "get more programs", but if you don't survive the first couple missiles fired at you, what good are full countermeasure buckets when your plane is scattered across the ground below your swinging parachute? If a program takes half your chaff or flares to defeat whatever threats you are planning to go up against, so be it; adjust your attack plan and tactics accordingly.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Raptor9

[Mistermann]

Thank you, @Raptor9!

[5ephir0th]

Thanks @Raptor9

[Colonel Akir Nakesh]

On 4/27/2022 at 5:19 PM, Raptor9 said:

My set-up:
PRGM 1: Reactive RF countermeasures, a custom chaff program proven to defeat SA-3 and SA-6
PRGM 2: Reactive RF countermeasures, a custom chaff program proven to defeat SA-2, SA-8, SA-10, and SA-15
[snip]

 

Hey Raptor,

Which of those programs do you use for BVR? And do you use any flare program pre-emptively when merged with bandits?

Thanks and editing my .luas now ^_^

[Raptor9]

6 hours ago, Colonel Akir Nakesh said:

Which of those programs do you use for BVR? And do you use any flare program pre-emptively when merged with bandits?

If I see an engagement that is imminent, I'll usually set my knob to the more complex chaff program just in case. But the best defense in BVR is a good offense, and I'll sometimes lob an AIM-120 early just to put the bandit on the defensive before he can even get a missile off. Then keep pushing against the bandit while he's defensive to get a second AIM-120 shot off with a higher probability of success. And sometimes the early AIM-120 takes him out precluding the second shot, but I would much rather use two AIM-120's to take down a bandit then let him force me on the defensive in which I'm trying to defeat his missile while he continues to close the range for subsequent shots against me.

As for the Within Visual Range arena, I try to avoid the merge if at all possible. It doesn't matter how advanced your jet is or how many expendables you have in the buckets, letting yourself get sucked into a merge is opening yourself up to nastiness. I rarely carry more than 1x AIM-9X, because I spend most of my time avoiding the merge and putting my chips toward the BVR jousting. If I am forced into a merge, that AIM-9X is my ace in the hole to survive long enough to extend and get out of there, or to at least shoot down an enemy wingman so I only have to worry about keeping the one bandit in my forward hemisphere. I may pop off a few pre-emptive flares if I see the bandit's nose getting on me, or if I think he has off-boresight missiles and I'm in his envelope for those (sometimes you just "feel" it about to get launched at you ). But again, my strategy is to kill the enemy bandit quickly or just get out of there.

The most effective countermeasures against getting shot at is to avoid needing to use them in the first place.

[Colonel Akir Nakesh]

On 6/26/2023 at 4:08 PM, Raptor9 said:

If I see an engagement that is imminent, I'll usually set my knob to the more complex chaff program just in case. But the best defense in BVR is a good offense, and I'll sometimes lob an AIM-120 early just to put the bandit on the defensive before he can even get a missile off. Then keep pushing against the bandit while he's defensive to get a second AIM-120 shot off with a higher probability of success. And sometimes the early AIM-120 takes him out precluding the second shot, but I would much rather use two AIM-120's to take down a bandit then let him force me on the defensive in which I'm trying to defeat his missile while he continues to close the range for subsequent shots against me.

As for the Within Visual Range arena, I try to avoid the merge if at all possible. It doesn't matter how advanced your jet is or how many expendables you have in the buckets, letting yourself get sucked into a merge is opening yourself up to nastiness. I rarely carry more than 1x AIM-9X, because I spend most of my time avoiding the merge and putting my chips toward the BVR jousting. If I am forced into a merge, that AIM-9X is my ace in the hole to survive long enough to extend and get out of there, or to at least shoot down an enemy wingman so I only have to worry about keeping the one bandit in my forward hemisphere. I may pop off a few pre-emptive flares if I see the bandit's nose getting on me, or if I think he has off-boresight missiles and I'm in his envelope for those (sometimes you just "feel" it about to get launched at you ). But again, my strategy is to kill the enemy bandit quickly or just get out of there.

The most effective countermeasures against getting shot at is to avoid needing to use them in the first place.

Thanks, Raptor! I know that's probably basic and second nature to a lot of people but one of the things I love about DCS is it seems to be an endless stream of new things for me to learn  I've been spending so much time in the Hind my BVR skills have been getting really flabby.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Colonel Akir Nakesh

[Hiob]

@Raptor9 Are you punching in those settings in the DED on every mission start, or have you some kind of tool, to have them applied automatically when you start a mission?

Edited June 29, 2023 by Hiob

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

@Raptor9 Are you punching in those settings in the DED on every mission start, or have you some kind of tool, to have them applied automatically when you start a mission?

Each time as I am taxiing to the runway or shortly after takeoff while enroute to the target area. Only takes a minute or so. I have my ICP set up on my keypad and arrow keys so it is pretty easy to rapidly input data. Makes navigating and interacting with the DED a breeze and I've gotten pretty quick with it. (The "Dec" and "Inc" keys are the Increment/Decrement rocker to the left of the ICP DCS switch.)

EDIT: I sequence to the CHAFF page, edit chaff in PRGM 1, Decrement to PRGM 2, edit the chaff in PRGM 2, and then each programs chaff through to PRGM 6. Then I sequence to the FLARE page, and do the same thing in reverse order for flares by Incrementing from PRGM 6 to end with editing the flares in PRGM 1. Minimizes needing to cycle through CHAFF>FLARE>OTHER1>OTHER2 for each program.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Raptor9

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, Raptor9 said:

Each time as I am taxiing to the runway or shortly after takeoff while enroute to the target area. Only takes a minute or so. I have my ICP set up on my keypad and arrow keys so it is pretty easy to rapidly input data. Makes navigating and interacting with the DED a breeze and I've gotten pretty quick with it.

That's actually a neat Idea. I use those keys for other stuff, but I could configue a toggle switch for a secondary controls set.

I usually prefer to use the clickable cockpit for non-hotas stuff, but in this special case your approach makes a hell of sense.  

[Colonel Akir Nakesh]

On 6/29/2023 at 8:09 AM, Raptor9 said:

Each time as I am taxiing to the runway or shortly after takeoff while enroute to the target area. Only takes a minute or so. I have my ICP set up on my keypad and arrow keys so it is pretty easy to rapidly input data. Makes navigating and interacting with the DED a breeze and I've gotten pretty quick with it. (The "Dec" and "Inc" keys are the Increment/Decrement rocker to the left of the ICP DCS switch.)

EDIT: I sequence to the CHAFF page, edit chaff in PRGM 1, Decrement to PRGM 2, edit the chaff in PRGM 2, and then each programs chaff through to PRGM 6. Then I sequence to the FLARE page, and do the same thing in reverse order for flares by Incrementing from PRGM 6 to end with editing the flares in PRGM 1. Minimizes needing to cycle through CHAFF>FLARE>OTHER1>OTHER2 for each program.

 

That is awesome, I have a similar setup but yours looks more efficient. Do you also have a similar setup for other modules, like the Hornet?

[Nealius]

On 6/26/2022 at 5:03 AM, Raptor9 said:

I wish I could find a chaff program that had a reliable defeat rate of the SA-11, but I haven't been able to crack that nut above 50% defeat rate. Coupled with their multi-target engagement capability and rapid re-attack tendency, I just avoid SA-11's unless I have to attack the batteries themselves or something they are protecting. In which case I'm more deliberate about developing my attack plan for that objective.

Have you tested against SA-2s recently? You mentioned one program as proven to defeat the SA-2 but I'm finding both jammer and chaff to be absolutely useless with a 0% defeat rate unless I drag the missile out >24nm from the track radar, at which point it self destructs while still leading an intercept course on me.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Nealius